The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Sorry. I'm not following.

    No. Play it at 7th fret like you're talking about.
    No, it's not you.
    It's me who do not understand that system of physical reference you talk about.
    When you speak about positions and one physical reference (2nd finger on 6th string), it sounds like if there was a system.
    Of course, I have my own , as we all do, but it is not really a system, it's more like set of preferences, based on convenience.
    I do start from some self preset rules, but there are too many exceptions. Maybe "user manual" is more of what it is.

    I looked at what you are saying, many times in many posts, especially since I thought it bared many resemblances to what I do, hoping to set the thing straight, but when I tried to nail it down, what I found were exceptions.
    So, it must be your system is not what I thought it was.
    In other words, I do not understand it and, likely, never will.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27
    Hi everyone:

    Sorry, I did not mean to create controversy. I know the subject of scales sends people into different directions. I apologize for that; it's just that I get the best help here. If you look at my previous threads I'm always getting the right advice and insight.

    Now, a book I recommend is Ted Gioia's History of Jazz. For my vocabulary at times it's a difficult book; I tend to have to look words up. But the creative process of the History of Jazz is there. I don't recommend other books by him just this one. (thriftbooks is great, look at all editions and you can find it as cheap as four dollars).

    The History of Jazz book by Ted Gioia

    Now, something else I recommend after reading this book is the quintessential Jazz Magazine called, "Downbeat." This magazine is more than a Magazine it is an American Institution respected by Musicians and Academics. Through the beauty of Spotify I'm being exposed to all the Jazz out there. In interviews with the artists and in bio's about the artists it goes into the creative process. Remember, this is a general Jazz magazine but they do go into Guitar Jazz. Bill Frisell was featured a few months back. It's not expensive, only 6.00 dollars per issue and it's worth it.

    DownBeat Magazine

    I hope this has helped in some way.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    For scale positions I like CAGED which is 5 positions, or for a better way of thinking of it, 5 references. Once you learn that you'll find yourself playing between the references and sliding from one to another. That's why I think references or landmarks is a better way of saying it.

    For reading I think you can just go to the Leavitt book, A Modern Method for Guitar. He doesn't use CAGED to explain the scales, I used a CAGED way of thinking though when I went through the book. This book was (still is?) used at Berklee School of Music so it probably lines up well with what your instructor was showing you. And the book does use the term "positions" for the reading studies.

    I recorded my way through the entire 1st book, a couple of examples:

    This 1st one is a duet, I switch to the single note playing video around 1:05.




    That's helpful but still a little confusing with terms.

    Think of position as "fret position" or simply fret, if it helps. What fret do I place my first finger on while assigning the other three fingers to the adjacent frets upward from there? That is position.


    CAGED (traditional fingering) offers 5 fingering patterns - not positions. In fact three of the fingering patterns involve a shift OUT of position.

    When one starts in a low position, plays all 5 CAGED fingering patterns in one key, then begins the cycle upwards from there - they will have traversed 12 positions, not 5. The CAGED fingerings cover a full octave with 5 fingerings, while Leavitt created 12 fingerings to cover one octave along the fret board.
    Last edited by Jazzstdnt; 08-18-2017 at 08:43 AM.

  5. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt
    That's helpful but still a little confusing with terms.

    Think of position as "fret position" or simply fret, if it helps. What fret do I place my first finger on while assigning the other three fingers to the adjacent frets upward from there? That is position.


    CAGED (traditional fingering) offers 5 fingering patterns - not positions. In fact three of the fingering patterns involve a shift OUT of position.

    When one starts in a low position, plays all 5 CAGED fingering patterns in one key, then begins the cycle upwards from there - they will have traversed 12 positions, not 5. The CAGED fingerings cover a full octave with 5 fingerings, while Leavitt created 12 fingerings to cover one octave along the fret board.
    They are two distinct terms though describing two different things. You can play any pattern from any position. Caged "patterns" in any key could also be described in terms of "position", but they're not the same thing at all.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 08-18-2017 at 09:29 AM.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oneofthe

    1. How many Positions are there in Position Reading or Position playing?



    2. Can scale study be used to be a better position reader? In other words, in learning the Seven Fingering Patterns of the guitar can that be directly applied to all positions that are used in guitar.


    How many? - Open position through highest position on the instrument, counted one fret at a time.

    Can scale study be used to be a better position reader?

    Yes of course. They are a frame of reference as some like to say. If you want to read in the second position, knowing a scale fingering pattern for each key in question in that position (or area) will be essential.

    But of course, that will only get you so far because you will be playing music, not just pure scales. The instant that you are forced to hold one note while playing another will force you to make a fingering decision that may or may not be informed by a scale fingering pattern.

    Cheers

  7. #31

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    Guitar positions are generally described in half steps.

    Open ... 0 - 4
    1st ... 1 - 5
    2nd ... 2 - 6
    3rd ... 3 - 7
    etc.

    Most orient themselves around the 1st finger, others prefer the 2nd finger.
    People are different, nothing new here.

    For guitar, I believe that the existence of different scale shape systems adds a bit of confusion to a discussion of positions.

    Violin family instrument positions are generally described by scale steps.
    For violin and viola, a hand position covers 7 half steps, 4 note per string scales are the norm.
    For cello, similar in size to guitar, a hand position is 5 half step or 3 scale noes per hand position.
    Given the 5ths tuning, this then requires much shifting to get at sequential scale notes.

    Playing both cello and guitar though, I prefer the greater specificity of position per half step description.

    There are study books that teach reading first by single positional reading etudes and then position shifting etudes.
    Many like to sight read, especially faster music in a single position as much as possible.

  8. #32

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    I learned and was taught by learning to play the chromatic scale over a four fret area in one position in which the first finger goes down one fret if necessary and the fourth finger goes up one fret if necessary . So the total possible fret coverage is six frets at any given moment. If you can play the chromatic scale, you can play any scale .

  9. #33

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    Third position is a good one, and I think working on seventh is a very good idea.

    In practice I find most music rather inconveniently moves between 3rd position and 12th, so I've been working on practicing diagonally in linked positions to close the gap.

  10. #34

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    Five fret chromatics is a physical reality. That is what is needed to play the notes of the chromatic scale.
    Six frets is a pragmatic variation because the extra fret offers more options for some of the most awkward
    fingerings available in five frets.

  11. #35

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    Any neck organization and fingerings will work.... as long as you finish the system or organization of guitar neck and how you finger it.

    The guitar is a 12 fret repeating system, fingerings and neck organization are a method for the neck or guitar fretboard to become one big fingering. That's the goal... you want to be able to play... Anything... Anywhere on the fretboard.... without staring at your guitar.
    So you can look at the music if your sight reading... or be able to actually play the music etc...

    When you have weak or incomplete fretboard organization and fingerings... the guitar plays you, as compared to you playing the guitar.

    You don't want to need to memorize everything you play...

    An example is... when you play two octave Gmaj scale in 2nd position, you should be able to play that Gmaj scale starting on each note of that scale starting on the low 6th string up the neck to 14th position.... that would be one repeating pattern. (without having to stare at your guitar.) And play that pattern with Gmaj as your Reference, meaning in any of the positions you use moving up the neck, Gmaj needs to be your tonal reference....

    I'm sure I've posted many examples of this information...

    Gmaj in 2nd position, is not the goal... it's part of a fretboard organizational system , a part or step for reaching the goal.

    Reg

  12. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Any neck organization and fingerings will work.... as long as you finish the system or organization of guitar neck and how you finger it.

    The guitar is a 12 fret repeating system, fingerings and neck organization are a method for the neck or guitar fretboard to become one big fingering. That's the goal... you want to be able to play... Anything... Anywhere on the fretboard.... without staring at your guitar.
    So you can look at the music if your sight reading... or be able to actually play the music etc...

    When you have weak or incomplete fretboard organization and fingerings... the guitar plays you, as compared to you playing the guitar.

    You don't want to need to memorize everything you play...

    An example is... when you play two octave Gmaj scale in 2nd position, you should be able to play that Gmaj scale starting on each note of that scale starting on the low 6th string up the neck to 14th position.... that would be one repeating pattern. (without having to stare at your guitar.) And play that pattern with Gmaj as your Reference, meaning in any of the positions you use moving up the neck, Gmaj needs to be your tonal reference....

    I'm sure I've posted many examples of this information...

    Gmaj in 2nd position, is not the goal... it's part of a fretboard organizational system , a part or step for reaching the goal.

    Reg
    I appreciate everything you have written, but remember I'm just talking about reading music. Honestly, it really pained me to do that diagram; it's just not something I do. However, to understand the Keys as expressed in Tonal Harmony it was a nice exercise. Will I ever use it and look at it again? Maybe not, or maybe I will. It seems now that I know Gmaj has one accidental of F# I pretty much don't need it.

    But maybe I will use that diagram just to explore how this keys sound and differ. I don't know at this point.

    Thanks.

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    Five fret chromatics is a physical reality. That is what is needed to play the notes of the chromatic scale.
    Six frets is a pragmatic variation because the extra fret offers more options for some of the most awkward
    fingerings available in five frets.
    Correct. Do you have Six frets as a possibility, when you pick one of the outer ones with either your first or fourth finger , that excludes the other outer one and leaves you with five.

  14. #38

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    Yes... reading music or performing music, is basically the same thing.... you want what your playing to be what your hearing and part of that is phrasing, articulations etc... generally when you sight read or perform in just a few positions, you sound like that. Your missing many options of what the music should sound like, or even what it could sound like.

    The point of being able to sight read or perform in all positions... is to be able to create any of those possibilities.

    It's like saying well I know some pentatonic licks and using the same licks over different chord progressions... not really being aware of what the harmonic context of the progression is....

    With out basic references... when you create relationships and develop them... your reacting to the moment rather that the context that the moment exists within. In reference to reading or sight reading... when your playing in just a few positions, you have limited performance options of being able to create the music your performing. (not to mention being able to move up and down the neck seamlessly without staring down at your hands)

    I sight read well, have been a pro for years, part of reading is being aware of where the printed music should be performed on your guitar. Not just being able to get the notes out.

    I don't think about positions really that much either.... but I've put in the years of being able to recognize where the music on the paper should be performed on the guitar. There are always options, but that is again the goal... being able to perform those options.

    Tonal harmony has many possibilities or references. I'm for the most part talking about basic musicianship on the guitar, basic technical skills. Using those technical skills to perform music or develop relationships with harmonic relationships... is a different subject and not really related to technical skills.
    (there are mechanical references and relationships which can take harmonic concepts, like tonal harmony, and somewhat mechanically create relationships and develop them, but generally have limited levels of performance).

    Technical skills and Performance skills.... two different aspects of playing the guitar that need to be worked on separately. (opinion)
    There are again many approaches to doing anything, some are more efficient.

    Just another basic... generally get out of lower registers or positions, unless your performing that style of music. Jazz is generally from 5th fret up to 15th

  15. #39

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    I generally always try and be aware of where I'm going, (the highest or lowest note) when changing positions, even with chromatic patterns, so I have choices of where I want to change position. The system I use is pretty consistent... I don't need to really think or watch, just be aware of what sound or phrasing I'm trying to create. (I do use 1st finger references or based patterns, but they are always in relationship to a 2nd finger based position.)

    Generally the 2nd finger is strongest, so personally the best basic reference... and stretches are more efficient than position changes, with 1st finger stretches going up and 4th finger going down. These are just basic references from which I build from.

  16. #40

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    Btw - Wes played a lot in lower positions and shifted a lot to get into higher positions on the top two strings.

    Mike Moreno suggests that third position is best for playing in that register and that higher positions on lower strings sound mushy and out of tune.

    I think he has a point, not that I've got around to practicing this concept for improvised lines.

  17. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Btw - Wes played a lot in lower positions and shifted a lot to get into higher positions on the top two strings.

    Mike Moreno suggests that third position is best for playing in that register and that higher positions on lower strings sound mushy and out of tune.

    I think he has a point, not that I've got around to practicing this concept for improvised lines.
    I recall, years ago, avoiding the higher frets on the lower pitched strings. They played out of tune.

    But, more recently, as a solid body player and doing my own intonation work, I can go to the 15th fret on the lower strings with acceptable intonation. Well, maybe not the 6th string so much, but I do use the C on the 5th string for a few things.

    Maybe some of the problem is a tendency for the fingerboard to tilt up gradually after the neck meets the body. At least, I've seen that on several guitars.

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I recall, years ago, avoiding the higher frets on the lower pitched strings. They played out of tune.

    But, more recently, as a solid body player and doing my own intonation work, I can go to the 15th fret on the lower strings with acceptable intonation. Well, maybe not the 6th string so much, but I do use the C on the 5th string for a few things.

    Maybe some of the problem is a tendency for the fingerboard to tilt up gradually after the neck meets the body. At least, I've seen that on several guitars.
    I can't say the out of tuneness is something I've really noticed on my instruments. Moreno plays a very expensive high end instrument so it's possible his sense of intonation is more picky than mine.

    I do dig what he's saying about the mushiness of the upper positions though. Tonally it's different and lower positions have more tension to them. Also makes it a bit easier to articulate in lower positions.

    Of course many players play low strings in high positions and sound great doing it, but it's something to think about
    Last edited by christianm77; 08-21-2017 at 06:58 AM.