The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    helped me to do it as much as anything

    hope its of some interest to some of you

    comments welcome (goes without saying?)


    Last edited by Groyniad; 12-31-2016 at 02:50 PM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    its the flippin' hat - i knew i shouldn't have worn it...

  4. #3

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    I just started working from Fewell's "melodic approach" book a couple of days ago, so anything related to that is helpful and most welcome. Thank you for posting such a clear and detailed explanation of how you apply his teaching to your playing.

  5. #4

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    I watched your video and realise I do this all the time.

  6. #5

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    what? bring air to your lines by using triads that come from the relative minor etc. etc.?

    or is it that you wear hats from rugged central asia a lot?
    Last edited by Groyniad; 12-15-2016 at 05:26 AM.

  7. #6

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    Love the 'bop' phrasing of the examples and the close scrutiny of the fine grain in the minute from 22:30 to 23:30. Serious commitment and very inspiring to see and hear.

    Although the sounds are familiar, I had to pause and examine the section between 4:00 and 4:50 - because I'm used to thinking of those sounds as extensions. For example, @4:02 I heard an Emi9 sound - but the explanation of the line in terms of triads (built on degrees 1, b3, 5 and b7 of the relative minor, right?) seems a much better idea. A deceptively simple one, too - because the triads combine to make complex lines. 'Small is beautiful' - especially where thinking is concerned.

    Moreover, as we have the advantage of polyphony, this thinking can be applied to playing thirds (and in any style).

    Great stuff - thanks!
    Last edited by destinytot; 12-15-2016 at 08:53 AM. Reason: typo

  8. #7

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    thanks a lot man

    yes - the triads are built on 1 b3 5 and b7 of the minor sound

    and you use these sounds to play over 1 - and they extend that 1 sound for you - so you don' have to think in terms of lots of different extensions at all

    and the little triads are quite easy to turn into little phrases - which you can repeat using one or two of the other triads built on other degrees of the minor sound - and this opens up the sound - generates harmonic structure WITHIN a sound

    and you use the same minor sound (at a different absolute pitch obviously) for your 2 sound

    and that covers your straight 5 sound as well (because you just use all the sounds you've unpacked out of 2 to get the straight dominant sound)

    and then you have a melodic minor sound (on #5 and 4 of the home sound) and you unpack that with triads in the same way - and it gives you an awful lot of altered dominant sounds

    and....

    thanks again man

  9. #8

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    I just think of the triads as being within the scale. So you practice your dominant scales in thirds, triads, seventh chords, ninth chords etc. Triads are handy as they are three notes and easily sweepable as you say.

    1 3 5 2 4 6 3 5 7 etc

    And variations thereon.

    Check out pivot sevenths, for example:

    C E G B becomes C' E G B (the C goes up an octave.)

    You can then use this stuff anyway you want.

  10. #9

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    A bit about stacked triads from Carol Kaye, from whom I learned this stuff.

    >>>>>STACKED TRIADS. You hear all the greats playing these on Jazz records since the creative 1950s. FYI, Joe Pass also mentioned how practicing these triads also changed his playing in the 1960s....when he quickly mentioned them (in 1 of 2 times we talked music while working Jazz concerts together 1971-73)....this is how I was explaining (in 2nd lesson) about these to one Skype student via email today:
    >>>>>>>Say the name of the CHORD (the triad is a CHORD) out-loud as you practice them going across the neck, i.e.:
    G7 stacking the triads is: G Bmb5 Dm (remember, Dm-G7 chords are always paired to use for either), F Am C Em G notice how, after Bmb5 it's minor-major-minor-major etc....
    Coltrane etal. all took notice of this and started their stacking of triads from Dm....and on the upper level, ignored the Bmb5 but made it Bm, then changed Dm to D (major) then it was Fm A Cm etc. essentially adding the A chord on top of the G chord, ...THAT as well as back-cycling the m7ths is what they "modal"....but no-one knows all this, and don't know how to teach it at all......nor how to use it.....don't attempt that until you learn all the jazz patterns and can function chordally...takes a few mos...but it's all easy when you train your ears-fingers to automatically create...and fun. See my free playing Tips Pages here for more on this....it's exciting, understandable, and even fun to practice as you get going...
    but again, don't get ahead of yourself with "intelligent understanding"...that STOPS all training....knowing it by the "mind" is not only wrong but also dangerous stuff....stops everyone from really learning...DO NOT ANALYZE...
    the musicians creating the real Jazz improv in the 1950s never did that at all....they heard it, they played it. But yes, takes some prep studying and practicing (without THINKING) and you are functioning then. I played with them (and the sax players from NYC also) in LA's fine Jazz time of over 100 Jazz clubs in the late 1950s....that's how they did it, and that's how I teach.<<<<<<<

    You can do this from C major (the I chord) or Dm (the ii chord) or any other chord in the key, but it's best to start with the V or ii or I to get the feel / sound of how the triads move/. And they're easy to play: the second two notes of the first triad become the first and second notes of the next one. Lather, rinse, repeat.

  11. #10

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    i don't think of them as within 'the scale' - because its very important to me to distinguish between what i increasingly think of as the 2 basic sounds in 'the key'.

    so i think of triads built off e.g VI min and triads built off e.g II min - and then keeping those two sounds separate i unpack both by building the triads only off the main voices in those two sounds (so 1,3,5 and 7).

    so i'm making two sounds basic - not one scale. and i think that all the sounds in the scale or key can be boiled down into one or other of those two fundamental ones. (and there are diminished or dom sounds used to pass or slip between them too).

    i want to keep them separate so i get to make them interact in interesting ways and to hear better the different functions they can perform.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    i don't think of them as within 'the scale' - because its very important to me to distinguish between what i increasingly think of as the 2 basic sounds in 'the key'.

    so i think of triads built off e.g VI min and triads built off e.g II min - and then keeping those two sounds separate i unpack both by building the triads only off the main voices in those two sounds (so 1,3,5 and 7).

    so i'm making two sounds basic - not one scale. and i think that all the sounds in the scale or key can be boiled down into one or other of those two fundamental ones. (and there are diminished or dom sounds used to pass or slip between them too).

    i want to keep them separate so i get to make them interact in interesting ways and to hear better the different functions they can perform.
    Keep doing what you're doing I say....

    I think it's all the same stuff viewed differently.

  13. #12

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    you're right - that's what it is

    the barry harris stuff and the garrison fewell stuff have come together for me in a productive way i think.

    great fun

  14. #13

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    Ah, what a shame... another potentially great hat video sidetracked by triad talk.

    Seriously though, good stuff. I've been digging into the Fewell stuff for a few months and it seems to be a brilliant way to organise things. I really like this minor conversion stuff -- minor and extensions built on the relative of the major, the ii of the V, the iii of the m7b5, etc.

    I haven't gotten to where he gets into the altered dom sounds yet (I assume he does at some point), so your video is pretty cool. I'm a bit confused about where you're getting these triads, though. I understand that you can get the altered sounds via the iv6 or the m6 built a semitone up from the dominant root (which is the same as a dom9 tritone sub), but how does this fit into Fewell's triad system? Or are you just adding m6 arpeggios to the system? (i.e., swapping the b7 for a 6 in the minor extensions)
    Last edited by Jehu; 12-15-2016 at 08:31 PM.

  15. #14

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    In his 1999 Hal Leonard instructional DVD, Larry Carlton explains and demonstrates his use of triads. I got it as an early Christmas present to myself, since no one who has me on their list knows what a triad is.

    Amazon.com: Larry Carlton DVD: Larry Carlton: Movies & TV

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by snailspace
    In his 1999 Hal Leonard instructional DVD, Larry Carlton explains and demonstrates his use of triads.
    I had no idea Larry was so flexible.

    Triads (Garrison Fewell)-tt1465499-jpg

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jehu
    I had no idea Larry was so flexible.

    Triads (Garrison Fewell)-tt1465499-jpg
    If you think he's flexible in this, you should take a gander at his yoga video.

  18. #17

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    i'm not sure where i got the triads using the melodic minor sound from - maybe it was my idea - i really don't know. they sound fantastic though - ever since i got into them i can't get away from them. very satisfying sounds (very well named too - they sure are 'melodic'.)

    in a way the biggest thing about it all is that if you're thinking about like one note - a ninth or a sharp five - and you're thinking 'i must use these to bring colour and interest to things' - then you're not in a very good position

    if the ninth and the #5 is 'embedded' in a triad - then you're in great shape because its easy to come up with lots of nice sounds using the triad (add a bit before and after the triad and you've got a real phrase).

    ----------

    what i did not emphasize in this vid. which i might in another one - is that once you've got your nice sounding triad based phrases that unpack your sounds for you - then its all about WHEN you play them - how you PLACE them in the bar. they are VERY flexible - you can put them all over the place - and this generates almost all the interest in your line.

  19. #18

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    here's another triad based idea for the start of ornithology - much shorter this time

    but it illustrates the way the triads work quite nicely i hope.


  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Groyniad
    i'm not sure where i got the triads using the melodic minor sound from - maybe it was my idea - i really don't know. they sound fantastic though - ever since i got into them i can't get away from them. very satisfying sounds (very well named too - they sure are 'melodic'.)
    I guess what I'm wondering is whether you are actually using triads (/stacked triads in the Fewell sense) to access the MM sound -- and if the answer is yes, then what are these triads?

    Or are you just visualising those two m6 arpeggios, based on the E and A strings, and playing around those?

    Anyway, great vids, hope to see more.

  21. #20

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    i am using triads

    using the notes of the mm sound and starting from 1,3,5 and 7...

    very pretty sounds

  22. #21

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    So close... almost nailed a haiku.

    Thanks, I will play with it.

  23. #22

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    Any chance of an analysis of some off the shelf bebop material - a head say?

  24. #23

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    that's the best question anyone has asked me for ages...

    i'll get to it

  25. #24

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    just to be going on with - dig these triad triplets et. al.

    if this right hand is not the flippin king of right hands i don't know which right hand is the kind of right hands

    if you know what i mean

    - i hope i get good enough to hear this stuff one day - i love how direct it is. but (bird excepted) - this is as good as it gets i think.

    what is? - bill evans solo on 'you and the night and the music' (in particular what he plays with his right hand)



    Last edited by Groyniad; 12-18-2016 at 02:04 PM.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jehu
    Ah, what a shame... another potentially great hat video sidetracked by triad talk.

    Seriously though, good stuff. I've been digging into the Fewell stuff for a few months and it seems to be a brilliant way to organise things. I really like this minor conversion stuff -- minor and extensions built on the relative of the major, the ii of the V, the iii of the m7b5, etc.

    I haven't gotten to where he gets into the altered dom sounds yet (I assume he does at some point), so your video is pretty cool. I'm a bit confused about where you're getting these triads, though. I understand that you can get the altered sounds via the iv6 or the m6 built a semitone up from the dominant root (which is the same as a dom9 tritone sub), but how does this fit into Fewell's triad system? Or are you just adding m6 arpeggios to the system? (i.e., swapping the b7 for a 6 in the minor extensions)

    i'm adding a min 6 sound yes - but it swaps the #7 for the b7 (or you could put it like that). and this sound just crops up in two basic places in the home key (on #5 and on 4). and thats where the altered dominant sounds come from (or some of them).

    the other important place the min 6 with #7 turns up is on the fifth of the dom. chord (so on 2 of the home chord) - when it does it gives you the straight dom 7 with a flatted fifth sound (which is an important sound in its own right).

    so three important parts of the home sound that the melodic minor sound lives - three ways to find altered dominant sounds within the key.

    and i just build triads off 1, 3, 5, and 7 of this sound (b3 and #7 if you like). this gives you many many ways to hear the altered sounds