The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Ha I agree.

    What if you can't do either? ;-)
    Everyone can do one or the other. I'm suggesting we're wired one way or the other. A lot of guitar players think they're not fast enough. Let's face it, bop is really hard for a lot of people. To my ears jazz musicians in Japan have trouble playing fast but they have their own school at this point. In the US jazz musicians have trouble playing slow.
    I picked up the guitar and tried Seven Come Eleven. haven't played that since the 70's. It's going to be an awkward lick but anyone should be able to do it. It's not that hard.
    Last edited by Stevebol; 11-03-2016 at 12:29 PM.

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  3. #77

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    As Hep suggested I tried a 'dance' between the two fingers with the song Seven Come Eleven. I worked on that song in the 70's. I found myself accenting the lower note with the middle finger. Exaggerate the swing feel.
    If I was really into it I'd start slow and maintain a swing feel.
    Experiment a little.

  4. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    I'm not a teacher and I don't give lessons. Even if I was a teacher, giving lessons, even if pro bono, unlike almost all other teachers, including . , I've never heard/ saw you play so I can not know if there are any problems with your technique. You might be perfect?
    I'm honored that you made it about me personally, but this isn't about me. This is for me about folkflore. Blanket statements without any concrete example. That diminished lick in the Steve Vai clip is a prime example of something that is a mess if you have to work it out on your own. I've struggled with such licks for years and would end up with some sorry mess involving sweeping, legato or both.

    Along comes TG and just show that all you have to do is to change the way your pick points every 4 notes and VOILA! Suddenly it is doable. Getting that idea on your own requires luck .. and for most people will not happen. (and so we are back to the sweeping/legato solutions neither of which work very well in this particular lick).

    TGs advice is concrete and useful to me. The advice that if I work on something else than picking then my picking will improve seem less obvious

    But if we are to make it about me:
    I'm one of these doctor/lawyer (in my case the disease is being an economist) types that played a lot while young, but then got caught up in work and family life. A divorse a few years back gave me the opportunity to rekindle my flame for music and gave me a new hobby of buying expensive guitars .. I'm decent but that is all. It is an honor to have players on a pro-level share stuff with us lesser beings.
    Last edited by Lobomov; 11-03-2016 at 12:43 PM.

  5. #79

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    I'm not that lucky to have the means to buy expensive guitars. You can take my statement as blanket, or as you wish. My stance is, if you have to consciously change the orientation of the pick each 4 notes, in order to play one particular lick, then something is wrong with your technique on a different level. One should not think about orientation of the pick while playing. Pick should be there in your right hand, unless you are left handed, following the ear, the mind, the body, left hand, arm, elbow, wrist, fingers. It's not wise, IMO, to let the pick position lead in reverse order.
    However, if solving individual licks is the main goal, then OK, whatever.


    Sent from VladanMovies @ YouTube

  6. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    My stance is, if you have to consciously change the orientation of the pick each 4 notes, in order to play one particular lick, then something is wrong with your technique on a different level.
    That we can easily agree on. Once you learn a technique then you forget about it and just play. But that being said, none of us just pick up an instrument play notes on random or by feel and suddenly it's music.

    We've all been practicing the C-major scale down the finger board. I remember the pain of playing octaves at first .. plenty of things that I've worked on that now have become second nature. It is the same with pick slanting .. unfortunately at first you have to practice it conciously in order to get the movements right and then ... it is out of the window.


    Cheers Vlad!
    Last edited by Lobomov; 11-03-2016 at 01:53 PM.

  7. #81
    likely just throwing a lot of fuel to the fire but here we go:


  8. #82
    if anybody says "hey i want those 10 minutes of my life back" then I gotta tell you now there are no refunds

  9. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    That we can easily agree on. ...

    Cheers Vlad!
    Cheers mate, but I think we can only agree that we do not agree and leave it there. See you around the forum.


    Sent from VladanMovies @ YouTube

  10. #84

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    I think what Vlad is saying is that TG is good for specific licks (like the dim. lick) but is very hard to apply to jazz improvisation, which is not just playing specific licks (although I think it is unfortunately moving in that direction with some players who work out everything they do beforehand), but is more a matter of playing compositionally, rather than mechanically.

    However, isTG's message that you should slant downwards every time you use an upstroke, and slant upwards every time you use a downstroke, all the time? Or is he saying you should work it out strategically, according to the lick you're playing?

    I like the fingering for the dim. lick; I don't think I would have fingered it that way on my own.

    The Seven Come Eleven lick is a nightmare at fast (above 300bpm) tempos. I solve that problem by playing the minor 3rd on one string at fast tempos.

  11. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    However, isTG's message that you should slant downwards every time you use an upstroke, and slant upwards every time you use a downstroke, all the time? Or is he saying you should work it out strategically, according to the lick you're playing?
    Strategically .. He actually starts the series by looking at players that use stricts downwards pick slants like Yngwie and Eric Johnson. They solve problems with an uneven number of notes pr. string by sweeping ascending and playing the last note as a pull off while descending.

    Then he introduces Michael Angelo Batio that uses both the two way slanting approach like in the vai lick and swipes if needed. Change in pick slant isn't every note, just when appropriate. The Vai lick saw every 4th note.

    Finally he gets to the bluegrass players like Carl Miner, who actually change slant every stroke which allows them to spread mayhem on his acoustic doing crazy string skipping and all that. Tho when you start approaching the very fast stuff Carl switches to a pick slanter like the other guys.

    In order to watch it all you need patience and time .. it moves extremely slow bordering on painful
    Last edited by Lobomov; 11-03-2016 at 04:33 PM.

  12. #86

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    From what I've watched, it seems the pick slanting thing only works with the "Mel Bay" pick grip...not my ass-backwards "Benson" grip that I thought was the only way to hold the pick until I started joining internet forums.

    Bummer, looks like it works. But waaaay too late in the game for me to fundamentally change how I hold the pick. That ship has sailed.

  13. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    From what I've watched, it seems the pick slanting thing only works with the "Mel Bay" pick grip...not my ass-backwards "Benson" grip that I thought was the only way to hold the pick until I started joining internet forums.

    Bummer, looks like it works. But waaaay too late in the game for me to fundamentally change how I hold the pick. That ship has sailed.
    That isn't true. The only parameter that matter is whether your pick slants downwards or upwards .. apart from that you can be as backwards as you like
    Last edited by Lobomov; 11-03-2016 at 04:35 PM.

  14. #88

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    You're all hypnotized, no other explanation.
    Have to find those sunglasses, aliens might be just around the corner. And some bubble gum, so I could get out of it at appropriate moment.


    Sent from VladanMovies @ YouTube

  15. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    That isn't true. The only parameter that matter is whether your pick slants downwards or upwards .. apart from that you can be as backwards as you like
    Nah, really doesn't work with my grip. Specifically the slant that points towards the floor.

    No biggie, I'll survive

  16. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    likely just throwing a lot of fuel to the fire but here we go:

    The open string thing is basically the same thing as the minor 3rds thing in your OP.
    I've incorporated the open string exercise in my daily practice routine for a while now, and I have the same problem that I had with the minor 3rds thing; I can whiz through it if I'm ascending and starting on a down stroke, but if I start on an up stroke, I'm way slower.
    Descending, the reverse is true, which is the same picking as your OP.

    This stuff is important, because guys like Pat Martino, Jack Grassel, Johnny Smith and Jimmy Bruno say that you should be able to play the same things that you play when you start with a down stroke the same way if you start on an upstroke.

    I took my whole practice regime of scales and arps, and reversed the picking so that I start with an upstroke.
    I think it's helped me, although I'm just going on what other musicians(not guitarists) I play with say.
    I don't tape myself, because I'm afraid the acid from the puke might damage my esophagus!

  17. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    likely just throwing a lot of fuel to the fire but here we go:


    Thanks going to the trouble of making the video. I will watch it later. I am grilling today and I know my dog is trying to get at the little grease drip pan under the grill!

    By the way, I have started playing this in my routine at around 100 bpm and will take it up from there.

  18. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    You're all hypnotized, no other explanation.
    Have to find those sunglasses, aliens might be just around the corner. And some bubble gum, so I could get out of it at appropriate moment.


    Sent from VladanMovies @ YouTube
    Meaning no offense, do you have to keep making snide comments? We're discussing Troy Grady; you've established that you think his stuff isn't worth the money or that useful. Cool, that's fine.

    But when you keep coming here and making snide remarks it moves from having an opinion to being a twat. Let us drink our goddamn Kool-Aid in peace.

  19. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Nah, really doesn't work with my grip. Specifically the slant that points towards the floor.

    No biggie, I'll survive
    Well, if it is of comfort, I hold the pick forwards and it is slanted, but still, I can not play fast. Many players hold it backwards and they either can, or can not play fast. Even players who may consider them selves not being "slanters" at least at the very moment of actual pluck they either let the pick a little "give", which equals slanting one way, or deliberately fight against the "give", which equals slanting another way, it's especially noticeable on hi speed hi res camera footage No matter exactly, it is inevitable, still, some can play fast, some can not.

    Anybody, including my self, can be trained to spit out couple of licks/ scales really fast, regardless of weather we practiced "slanting", or whatever.

    I conclude the clue is in something else.

    BTW, if I remember correctly, can not switch to other app now to check your clips, your pick is slanted too. Simply put, slanting .... What was that disco song ... Ooh oh oh oh, ah ah - Could it be that ...


    Sent from VladanMovies @ YouTube

  20. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun
    Meaning no offense, do you have to keep making snide comments? We're discussing Troy Grady; you've established that you think his stuff isn't worth the money or that useful. Cool, that's fine.

    But when you keep coming here and making snide remarks it moves from having an opinion to being a twat. Let us drink our goddamn Kool-Aid in peace.
    You are right, I posted response to Mr. Beaumont before reading your post. I will not make further TG comments, unless someone specifically ask me to make one.



    Sent from VladanMovies @ YouTube

  21. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    Well, if it is of comfort, I hold the pick forwards and it is slanted, but still, I can not play fast. Many players hold it backwards and they either can, or can not play fast. Even players who may consider them selves not being "slanters" at least at the very moment of actual pluck they either let the pick a little "give", which equals slanting one way, or deliberately fight against the "give", which equals slanting another way, it's especially noticeable on hi speed hi res camera footage No matter exactly, it is inevitable, still, some can play fast, some can not.

    Anybody, including my self, can be trained to spit out couple of licks/ scales really fast, regardless of weather we practiced "slanting", or whatever.

    I conclude the clue is in something else.

    BTW, if I remember correctly, can not switch to other app now to check your clips, your pick is slanted too. Simply put, slanting .... What was that disco song ... Ooh oh oh oh, ah ah - Could it be that ...


    Sent from VladanMovies @ YouTube
    Heavily slanted, downward.

    Like I said, I'll make it. I don't consider hammer on and pull offs dirty words

  22. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    From what I've watched, it seems the pick slanting thing only works with the "Mel Bay" pick grip...not my ass-backwards "Benson" grip that I thought was the only way to hold the pick until I started joining internet forums.

    Bummer, looks like it works. But waaaay too late in the game for me to fundamentally change how I hold the pick. That ship has sailed.
    Really? I change the way I hold the pick depending what week it is. (Almost...) I spent about half of 2016 Benson picking, and I am now back basically to trad grip. I retrained myself from UWPS alternate to DWPS Gypsy picking back in 2011 (although it took about 18 months for my technique to really start sitting). It can all be changed.

    Amazing how quick you can adjust if you prioritise something. The question is, do you want to?

  23. #97

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    Nope

    I've done one thing for 25 years. Have no time or desire to change.

  24. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Nope

    I've done one thing for 25 years. Have no time or desire to change.
    Sensible chap.

  25. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Sensible chap.
    Have to be. COULD chase it all, but I'd never get anywhere. At this point in my life I need to pursue where I've made ground and have hopes and dreams for others where I havent.

  26. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Have to be. COULD chase it all, but I'd never get anywhere. At this point in my life I need to pursue where I've made ground and have hopes and dreams for others where I havent.
    Well, I dunno. Practice what interests you, nothing more.