Ms Lora/Mr Wu Special Project

[2bornot2bop]

Mr Wu's translator has offered that Mr Wu's did not know the name M Campellone was a luthier, much less the builder of a design submitted to him in a photograph.

Folks don't want to accept that? Offer proof otherwise, lest you look like an accusatory idiot with no proof

It's likely not the first time someone submitted a photo with a photoshopped name atop the guitar of a known design - if known only to us in the west.

There's no proof of what those suggesting occurred, was known, much less intentional.

You're wanting justice, accountability, for accusations

Accusations aren't fact. Any fool with a keyboard today can make a accusation.

Accuse me - stand in line and take a number

[2bornot2bop]

Yes 2b, I have traveled outside the country. And I've traveled beyond the tourist areas and saw poverty that I could never imagine existed. I am very sensitive to people who are less fortunate than myself. I came from nothing too. And I made something of myself because I worked hard. Just like Mark Campellone did. Think about it.
Are you trying to say that Mr Wu doesn't have the internet? Then how do they get their orders?

I'm saying I've never communicated to Mr Wu, for to the best of my knowledge he doesn't speak English.

I've never been to China, and can't speak to the schedule of China's regular roaming electricity and internet blackouts. But they're commonplace.

Surely anyone in America with Internet knows that?

[Max405]

Mr Wu's translator has offered that Mr Wu's did not know the name M Campellone was a luthier, much less the builder of a design submitted to him in a photograph.

Folks don't want to accept that? Offer proof otherwise, lest you look like an accusatory idiot with no proof

It's likely not the first time someone submitted a photo with a photoshopped name atop the guitar of a known design - if known only to us in the west.

There's no proof of what those suggesting occurred, was known, much less intentional.

You're wanting justice, accountability, for accusations

Accusations aren't fact. Any fool with a keyboard today can make a accusation.

Accuse me - stand in line and take a number

"offer proof otherwise, lest you look like an accusatory idiot with no proof"
"Any fool with a keyboard today can make a accusation."

Do you have proof that he had no idea who M Campellone is? Do you have proof that he doesn't have access to the internet (again, how does he do business??)
And any person with half a brain, some street smarts and a keyboard can see through the BS going on around here.
Do you think that fake Rolex's are made by people who have no idea real ones exist? And I guess Sammy Sosa didn't take performance enhancing drugs because he didn't speak English? Please..

[Max405]

Disagree with all due respect.
We're talking about China, not the United States of America.
Have you ever been to China ?
Are you sure internet is available to everyone there ?

I see a difference in "being in the business of making guitars" (western way of it) and "making guitars".

To me, the one who is to blame is not the maker (making one guitar for a single order) but the one who ordered the guitar at first.

339, Thanks for the respect. I've never been to China. Looking at the map, its a big country and I would imagine there are computers there, considering all the labels I see on just about all of my electronic devices..

the thing that cracks me up is, the guy who ordered the fake Campellone supposedly had a lot money? Then why didn't he just buy a real one?

Then me and my friend 2B wouldn't be having this disagreement..

[Max405]

The unfortunate reality of this forum is it can be at times like swimming with sharks and God help you if you have a cut finger that is bleeding. It can turn very quickly from advise to a personal attack which either leaves a member very mad and upset or with very hurt feelings. It is not what one posts but how it is posted which can be brutal at times. I know that I personally have been attacked on occasion and it doesn't feel good.
We all have very strong opinions but sometimes we forget that we are all playing on the same team.
.....Vinny

Aw Come On Vin.. That was just one time. Its because you were ripping poor Gibson. When did they ever do anything wrong to deserve that?

[2bornot2bop]

"offer proof otherwise, lest you look like an accusatory idiot with no proof"
"Any fool with a keyboard today can make a accusation."

Do you have proof that he had no idea who M Campellone is? Do you have proof that he doesn't have access to the internet (again, how does he do business??)
And any person with half a brain, some street smarts and a keyboard can see through the BS going on around here.
Do you think that fake Rolex's are made by people who have no idea real ones exist? And I guess Sammy Sosa didn't take performance enhancing drugs because he didn't speak English? Please..

Having lived a year, in a 3rd world country, 2b is only offering plausible explanation based upon personal experience about the realities of life in non English speaking populations.

Speaking of non-english speaking populations, hey, I once lived near Jersey too. In the 70's! And if someone made an accusation without facts they better be able to prove it - Or else! Have things changed that much?!

Ms Lora said Mr Wu didn't know. That's good enough for me

[Hammertone]

Forget it, Jake;
It's Chinatown.
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I've been waiting for quite a few years to use that line.

[Max405]

Having lived a year, in a 3rd world country, 2b is only offering plausible explanation based upon personal experience about the realities of life in non English speaking populations.

Speaking of non-english speaking populations, hey, I once lived near Jersey too. In the 70's! And if someone made an accusation without facts they better be able to prove it - Or else! Have things changed that much?!

Ms Lora said Mr Wu didn't know. That's good enough for me

Im just bitter because you didn't use the logo I designed for you. The one I spent 5 minutes on. Remember this?



Instead, you used a Tulip.. Come on 2B.. Being from near New Jersey? You could have used a Cheese Steak or an Eagle or "P".. A Tulip??

This is fun.

[2bornot2bop]

Im just bitter because you didn't use the logo I designed for you. The one I spent 5 minutes on. Remember this?



Instead, you used a Tulip.. Come on 2B.. Being from near New Jersey? You could have used a Cheese Steak or an Eagle or "P".. A Tulip??

This is fun.

I was concerned about copyright violations on blacked out circles and rectangles that any blue note record owner would recognize!

the blue "white" tulip is a practice metaphor, as in a white belt is to a black belt...everyone begins with that first step.

Actually, Jeff offered to get back to me on my attempt at graphic design, and I never heard from him. I didn't pester him, he's a busy guy with a kid.

If only you'd offered the "cheesesteak" suggestion earlier!

[Max405]

I was concerned about copyright violations on blacked out circles and rectangles that any blue note record owner would recognize!

tou·ché, good one..

[mr. beaumont]

I was concerned about copyright violations on blacked out circles and rectangles that any blue note record owner would recognize!

the blue "white" tulip is a practice metaphor, as in a white belt is to a black belt...everyone begins with that first step.

Actually, Jeff offered to get back to me on my attempt at graphic design, and I never heard from him. I didn't pester him, he's a busy guy with a kid.

If only you'd offered the "cheesesteak" suggestion earlier!

Lol, that's cooler than I would have come up with anyway.

[xuoham]

I think it's clear for all of us that putting someone's name on a work is the not to be crossed line and that it is an outrage.
And kudos to IImV7IM7 for (again, lol) raising an alarm voice.

But i feel really sorry for the Wu team that somehow it could be understood that they counterfeit. Come on ! One guitar ? Out of hundreds ? I know, one guitar is already one too many, but for me it means that Mr Wu's team did not know.
I believe in their sincerity.

Counterfeiters in China are probably on a bigger scale than this nice little workshop in the Beijing countryside.
Heck, me too, until recently i did not know that Campellone was a guitar maker, because i don't have time nor money to dream of high end archtops, life is short and i'd rather play music.
Gibson, Ibanez, Sadowsky, Benedetto, etc ... was perhaps all i knew. Painter, Trenier, Elferink, Parker, etc ... i all heard about it here on this forum.
So how about a Chinese artisan, who obviously is not a jazz guitarist ?
Internet or not, don't forget that our alphabet is a pain in the neck for them. We tend to underestimate the cultural gap.

Were it a major brand like Gibson, etc... written on this ONE conflictual guitar, i would think the Mr Wu was desperately in need of business (just quit Yunzhi in 2014) and it would be obvious he knew. But Campellone ?

Otherwise, yes, the majority of the Wu guitars may be inspired by Benedetto, who probably wanted this, since he released a DVD on how to make archtops.

Anyway, with this sort of thread, i can't help bringing this back to a more zoomed out perspective, geopolitic and history.
China has been well abused by the West in the last centuries ... but we should not debate aoubt that, i think.

Happy Chinese New Year ya all ! Hehehe !

[yolandateam]

With all due respect, I'm not buying it.
Someone who is in the business of making guitars doesn't know who Mark Campellone is? Understanding Copyright laws should be imperative if you are a guitar builder. It doesn't take much to go online and verify a logo before you unlawfully put it on a guitar you are building. Sorry that was weak.
JD

First you should know that Mr Wu didn't speak English. and he is seldom on the line, he is very busy for the orders and haven;t much on line checking every luthiers in other countries. .

No offend, but Is that Ok for you search on net in Chinese ?

Lora

[yolandateam]

so the "wealthy client" provided a photo of a campellone headstock? surely at that point mr. wu must have realized that he was working on a counterfeit, right?

For this question, I asked Mr wu, and he said he thought it is the customer's own design, and the saler who sold this guitar didn't tell Mr Wu too.

Yours
Lora

[yolandateam]

Here I want to be clear that in Mr Wu's workshop, it hasn't internet actually.

I help him get orders and translate for him, then I send the orders to his email and he will go to print shop to print the orders out and he will make the guitars following the details on the order paper. If need color confirm or other details. I have to send message by mobilephone. or calling him.

Now Mr wu have realized that it is wrong and he will not put other brand on his guitars.

Yours
Lora

[aboutIt]

Mr. Wu is a fine craftsman and I'm sure a very quick learner. What is important now is to do the right thing in the future. The headstock design of a guitar is very much like the craftsman's signature. You'll notice that all the different Eastman models have the same Eastman mark on the headstock. A simple solution would be for Ms. Lora to post a picture of requested headstock designs on this forum. Lots of knowledgeable and friendly people here will quickly let you and Mr. Wu know if the design is the mark of another craftsman. I will say that I believe that the headstock of Mr. Wu's guitars is the perfect place for Mr. Wu's own name. I appreciate that BigMike requested that feature of the guitar because it honors Mr. Wu as the builder. There are many international buyers who would value an original Mr. Wu guitar every bit as much as one from another maker. Please explain to Mr. Wu and I hope you will consider my suggestion of asking the readers of this forum for help if you are unsure about a design. If you do the right thing, I am confident Mr. Wu will win new and loyal customers for his own creations. Thank you for listening and good luck to you in growing your relationship with your international customers and fellow luthiers.

[travisty]

I have lived outside the US for the last 25+yrs, most of that time in places where English was not spoken as a first language at all. While some young people around the world speak English, the 'prevalence' is in knowing the letters and how to reach them on the keyboard, OR, in identifying western names which pique their interest/hobbies. Gibson is not spelled "Gibson" in Japan or China. In Japanese it is ギッブソン. The vast majority of the artisan/craftsman class making stuff, however, don't necessarily have the internet 'skills' in English that we users of this forum do.

And web 'usage' in China, while massively prevalent, is different than web usage in the west. The vast majority of it is mobile messaging and email. In terms of hours spent, there is a lot of online usage for gaming, and shopping online for specific stuff. However, there is so much 'information' written in Chinese which is false, there is enormous skepticism (in China) in the 'truth' of anything one tries to 'research' in Chinese (without a fair bit of knowledge of how to cut through the bullhookie).

And just like most of you don't know how to try and dig up information online in Chinese, Mr Wu wouldn't necessarily know how to do the research in English. I'd be somewhat surprised if, even given the logo of M Campellone as it was, that he could separate the letters reliably so that he could search in English. Or if he had heard the name Campellone which had been put into characters for him somehow, that he would make the link between the letters in that logo and the name he had once heard (though I'd personally bet he hadn't heard the name before). And all of this presumes that he is an internet user. I think there are lots and lots of craftsmen Mr Wu's age making furniture or whatnot who would put a logo meaningful to the customer if asked and wouldn't go to the internet to research simply because it wouldn't occur to them to do so.

[Max405]

First you should know that Mr Wu didn't speak English. and he is seldom on the line, he is very busy for the orders and haven;t much on line checking every luthiers in other countries. .

No offend, but Is that Ok for you search on net in Chinese ?

Lora

Hi Lora,
thank you for clarifying that. I understood that from what others are saying here on JGF.
Yes it is ok for me to search on net in Chinese. But I don't need to. because I am not building exact copies of famous guitars that are accurate down to the name on the headstock and selling them.

[yolandateam]

Mr. Wu is a fine craftsman and I'm sure a very quick learner. What is important now is to do the right thing in the future. The headstock design of a guitar is very much like the craftsman's signature. You'll notice that all the different Eastman models have the same Eastman mark on the headstock. A simple solution would be for Ms. Lora to post a picture of requested headstock designs on this forum. Lots of knowledgeable and friendly people here will quickly let you and Mr. Wu know if the design is the mark of another craftsman. I will say that I believe that the headstock of Mr. Wu's guitars is the perfect place for Mr. Wu's own name. I appreciate that BigMike requested that feature of the guitar because it honors Mr. Wu as the builder. There are many international buyers who would value an original Mr. Wu guitar every bit as much as one from another maker. Please explain to Mr. Wu and I hope you will consider my suggestion of asking the readers of this forum for help if you are unsure about a design. If you do the right thing, I am confident Mr. Wu will win new and loyal customers for his own creations. Thank you for listening and good luck to you in growing your relationship with your international customers and fellow luthiers.

Yes, After Chinese New year, we will decide our logo on Mr Wu's guitar. Then I will show it here.

Yours
Lora

[edh]

@Joe D.

"Yes it is ok for me to search on net in Chinese."

I think what Lora mean't is could you do a search in Chinese on the internet with you knowledge of Chinese?

[diminix]

I think it's clear for all of us that putting someone's name on a work is the not to be crossed line and that it is an outrage.

Maybe I missed that somebody said the same before, but: in my point of view, the situation is that somebody is commisioning a craftsman to build a single, custom made item, including logo or copyrighted construction details of others, for personal use. No crime happens here. It starts to happen, when the buyer puts the item on the market, when it is not for personal use anymore but for business. And then the client of the craftsman is to blame, not the craftsman himself. We are not talking about industrial serial production.

So, if Mr. Wu in the future is going to avoid these situations by not fullfilling similar orders, I have to bow my head to him. Don't see the need for that unless he expects his customers to be a bunch of criminal a**wipes (when I am going to watch the tv news tonight and see my fellow human beings doing what they are doing, I will wonder if that expectation wouldn't be correct).

Robert

ps: crime might be a dangerous word here, I am thinking about moral aspects, natural law.

[xuoham]

Another thing that could be useful is to provide Lora and Mr Wu with an exhaustive list of all the archtop makers.
Simple, no ?

That one is not exhaustive but it's a good start.

Also, iim7V7IM7 started a thread in that vein. Especially this. Please take a look Lora !

Mr Wu company is probably too small to have an international lawyer, but maybe a good list is all they need to avoid that "Campellone Affair".


ps: oh ! those prices ! ouch ! Still probably cheaper that a good cello though, lol.

courtesy of iim7V7IM7 from the above mentioned thread:

Anderson = $5,600 - $18,000
Unger = $4,400 - $16,000
Benedetto = $9,000 - $30,000
Buscarino = $9,000 - $24,000
Campellone = $4,450 - $12,500
Comins = $8,500 - $12,500
Grimes = $6,200 - $22,000
Lacey = $10,000 - $20,000
Mapson = $5,550-$18,500
Marchione = ?
Megas = $6,075 - $9.300
Moll = $5,500 - $15,000
Monteleone = ? (likely expensive)
Mortoro = $5,300 - $18,000
Nickerson = $5,000 - $8,000
Ribbecke = $25,000
Schaefer = $7,260-$10,230
Triggs = ? (I suspect more affordable)
Walker = ? (not taking orders currently)
Zimnicki = ?

[Max405]

@Joe D.

"Yes it is ok for me to search on net in Chinese."

I think what Lora mean't is could you do a search in Chinese on the internet with you knowledge of Chinese?

Hi Ed,
Yeah, I know what she meant.
This whole ordeal taught me a lot about why it is not prudent to speak your mind around here.
Lora, if it was a mistake, I apologize. Good luck to you.
To the Forum and its Moderators, I apologize for any tension I might have caused.
BigMike, I'm sorry for hijacking your thread.
This has already taken way too much of my time away from me doing what I need to do. Come to think of it, I am defending a gentleman who has no idea who I am and will likely tell me to shut up and leave it alone. So from here on in, that's what I will do.

[MarkRhodes]

I did hear back from Mark Campellone.

Here (with his permission) is what he wrote to me:

>>>>Hi Mark,

A number of folks (some, I assume, who are Forum members) have contacted me about this - I appreciate your contacting me directly.

A few weeks ago it was brought to my attention that a Chinese builder was commissioned to make a copy of my Special Series model, and that there was a discussion of it on the Jazz Guitar Forum - I checked the Forum and learned that the peghead of the Special copy would bear the Chinese builder's logo. I was not overly concerned.

Just yesterday I learned that the same builder had also made a copy bearing my logo on the peghead, and this, I thought, was going a little too far - I'd like to think that my name, at least, is my own property.

I am pleased to know that response from Jazz Guitar Forum members has ultimately brought this issue to the attention of the builder, and that he plans to refrain from incorporating the branding of other builders into his work.

Thanks again for your consideration in contacting me.<<<<<<

So for those who wondered what Mark Campellone would make of this, there you have it.

[xuoham]

What a moderate and kind response !

Good job, Mark !