The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1451

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    Hhmm, that sounds interesting and useful. When you say "all" of the Barry Harris scales, which ones do you mean?

    I know two: C D E F G G# A B (-the major scale with a b6 or #5 in it) and C D Eb F G G# A B. Do you mean others as well?
    I would include the dominant 7th diminished scale.
    C D E F G Ab Bb B C
    The regular 7th bebop scale.
    C D E F G A Bb B C
    And I also like this one although it's not Barry Harris. It's the Phrygian Dominant scale with the passing major 7th added.
    C Db E F G Ab Bb B C

    You can start these scales on any note on the 6th string and you will see that after one octave they repeat on the 4th string and again on the 2nd string. This is what I can see when Benson moves up and down. His hand plays in one position for one octave then moves to a practically identical fingering of the scale either one octave up or down.

    Does that make sense? Sorry if I'm being obtuse. It reminds me of playing scales on a piano. The fingering repeats after each octave. The only deviation for guitar is the tuning difference between the G and B strings.

    Try playing the D7th bebop scale from high D on the first string 10th fret.
    D C# C B is played on the first string
    A G F# E is the second string (slide 1st finger from F# to E)
    D C# C B is played on the third string
    A G F# E is the fourth string
    D C# C B is played on the fifth string
    A G F# E is the sixth string

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  3. #1452

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    It's a similar concept for arpeggios. Play a D7 arpeggio starting on high D on the 10th fret of the 1st string.

    D C on the 1st string
    A F# on the 2nd string
    D C on the 3rd string
    A F# on the 4th string
    D C on the 5th string
    A F# on the 6th string

    Us the same fingering for each octave i.e. pinky, 2nd finger, pinky, 1st finger.

    Check out his opening cadenza on The Shadow of your Smile.

    E F# G (6th string)(open string, 2nd finger, 3rd finger)
    B (5th string)(2nd finger)
    E F# G (4th string)(1st finger, 3rd finger, 4th finger)
    B (3rd string)(3rd finger)
    E F# G (2nd string)(1st finger, 3rd finger, 4th finger)
    B (1st string)(3rd finger)

    You can see how he segments everything into single octave cells. When he wants to move up or down to a new octave he copies his existing cell formation. You can get pretty darn fast running lines this way.

  4. #1453

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    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe View Post
    I would include the dominant 7th diminished scale.
    C D E F G Ab Bb B C
    The regular 7th bebop scale.
    C D E F G A Bb B C
    And I also like this one although it's not Barry Harris. It's the Phrygian Dominant scale with the passing major 7th added.
    C Db E F G Ab Bb B C

    You can start these scales on any note on the 6th string and you will see that after one octave they repeat on the 4th string and again on the 2nd string. This is what I can see when Benson moves up and down. His hand plays in one position for one octave then moves to a practically identical fingering of the scale either one octave up or down.

    Does that make sense?
    Yes, it makes sense. Thanks. I'll work on this.

  5. #1454

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dioxic View Post
    Even though Troy isn't doing Benson picking I think he's analyzing the universal mechanics of picking in a way nobody has and is sort of demistifying things.

    People tend to tell you to practice until you have that "aha" moment, but I think Troy's work just makes it easier for you to reach that moment. It's always been kind of frustrating to me because in no other field would people just tell you to keep trying it until you figure it out. I believe there's no reason you can't turn picking into a science and Troy's leading that path.
    What Troy helped me with was a matter of focus. Instead of asking "Am I holding the pick right?" and, "Am I anchored right?" I asked, "What is my goal here?" The goal is stop tripping over my pick (so to speak). That's what I've learned and I'm happy about it.

  6. #1455

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    @Mark Calley, thanks a lot! I think this is going to make a big difference in my playing!

    This is gold to me. Very interesting.
    edh
    Last edited by edh; 07-24-2015 at 12:30 AM.

  7. #1456
    destinytot Guest
    I'm taking the liberty of writing out Chris Lonsdale's tips on rapid language acquisition for ease of reference.

    FIVE PRINCIPLES
    1. Focus on content that is relevant to you: attention, meaning, relevance, memory.
    2. Tools: use your language as a tool to communicate from day 1.
    3. When you first understand the message, you will unconsciously acquire the language.
    4. Physiological training (ears).
    5. Psycho-physiological state.**

    SEVEN ACTIONS
    1. Listen a lot - 'brain soaking'.
    2. Get the meaning first - before you get the words.*
    3. Start mixing.
    4. Focus on the core.
    5. Get a 'language parent' (i.e. a sympathetic interlocutor, who will (i) work hard to understand,(ii) never correct you, (iii) feed back understanding, (iv) use words* you know)
    6. Copy the face.***
    7. Direct connect - same box, different path.****

    * for 'word' read 'musical phrase'.
    ** Krashen talks about the need to lower the affective filter.
    *** for 'face' read 'hands'.
    **** use of synonyms
    Last edited by destinytot; 07-24-2015 at 03:12 AM. Reason: addition

  8. #1457
    First of all, let me say this thread is one of the best resource available regarding Benson picking technique (and picking technique in general), so thanks to all who contributed!

    After reading Tuck Andress article and the posts of this thread, I assume a beginner with Benson method should start with the grossest muscles (shoulder bicep and forearm) and then wrist motion and then eventually fingers. Someone also said that arm motion should always be used in the fastest passages, although many players achieved to play very fast with wrist motion (which it's the "shake" movement in JC tutorial) or even thumb/first finger motion (Henry Johnson seems to use that). However the debate about elbow/wrist motion has a long story also - and especially - in traditional picking and it's not my intention to retrace it here.

    Right now I've been using Benson picking for 6-7 months and I'm trying to train arm motion correctly. However it's still not completely clear to me which one is the correct arm motion with Benson grip/hand placement.
    In fact, just like with wrist motion, the Benson method allows the player to use two very different type of arm motion: the traditional one, which is an up and down movement (north/south with north as the head of the player and south as his feet) and a totally new one, similar to oscillation in wrist motion, where the pick moves almost in the same direction of the string (so the forearm doesn't move north/south but east/west).
    I've also noticed that with traditional up/down arm motion I don't anchor much with the pinky, because the elbow is the fulcrum and to get the pick in motion I I change the angle between humerus and forearm (usually the pinky slides gently along the pickguard), whereas if I use the east/west arm motion I have the anchored pinky as a fulcrum, and my whole arm is moving from the shoulder (the angle between humerus and forearm doesn't change at all).

    It's very difficult to see what Benson and other Benson pickers are really doing when playing fast, because movements are so small. Benson sure moves the arm, but how? Does the pick moves east/west in the same direction of the strings or north/south in the traditional way?
    I'm asking these questions because I personally find very difficult to switch from one arm movement to the other. Very different from what I feel playing with wrist motion, where I can easily switch from rotation to oscillation.
    Also,up/down arm motion with Benson grip seems to me a bit uncomfortable whereas east/west arm motion sounds better, and louder if needed (the pick gets the same tone as oscillation) but I can't play so fast (maybe it's just because I'm using new muscles, and I have to train them more).

    In the 60s Newport Festival video you can clearly see Benson anchoring firmly and moving the arm towards the headstock of the guitar, but it's difficult to say if he does that just for accenting some notes (along with rest stroke technique and changing picking angle for more "slanting" and in-stroke out-stroke technique). In other videos he seems to "float" more with his hand, especially in very fast playing, using a more traditional up/down arm motion (which results in anchoring at the elbow more than at the pinky…you can see his curled fingers gently sliding along the pickguard in an up and down motion).

    So, which arm motion would you guys recommend let's say in a very simple one-string tremolo exercise, for getting the right control/speed with Benson picking and training the right muscles from the start?

    Thank you all!



  9. #1458

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot View Post
    I'm taking the liberty of writing out Chris Lonsdale's tips on rapid language acquisition for ease of reference.
    Thanks, Mike. I watched the video and found it interesting. I copied the five principles and seven actions to print out and place on the music stand.

  10. #1459
    destinytot Guest
    I'm zeroing in on ten seconds of the extended turnaround from 5m55secs of this great clip (courtesy of ecj, in another thread). Detail, detail...

  11. #1460

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    Does anyone here have any of the recent books of Benson transcriptions?

    Here's one example:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/063..._dp_o_pd_S_ttl

    I'm wondering if any of these books shed light on his approach to fingering and fretboard organization.

  12. #1461
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    Does anyone here have any of the recent books of Benson transcriptions?

    Here's one example:
    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/063..._dp_o_pd_S_ttl

    I'm wondering if any of these books shed light on his approach to fingering and fretboard organization.

    I think it's a very good book with accurate transcriptions and useful notes on every songs. It gives you good ideas and suggestions about George's linear playing, legato style, slurs etc. The author also thanks Henry Johnson for his insight into the George Benson style! That said, I guess it would take a magician more than a transcriber to get the real fingering George used. For example, I've noticed that the suggested fingering of the Billie's Bounce head is quite different from the way George play it in the video from '88 that someone posted before (and who knows if he played the same way when he recorded it).

  13. #1462
    GB said his right hand technique is the 40s way of playing (guitar players in the 40s tend to hold the pick like that).
    That makes sense, have a look at this video with Floyd Smith, one of the pioneer of electric guitar:
    Bill Doggett et son orchestre - Vidéo Ina.fr

  14. #1463

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark78_blues View Post
    I think it's a very good book with accurate transcriptions and useful notes on every songs. It gives you good ideas and suggestions about George's linear playing, legato style, slurs etc. The author also thanks Henry Johnson for his insight into the George Benson style! That said, I guess it would take a magician more than a transcriber to get the real fingering George used. For example, I've noticed that the suggested fingering of the Billie's Bounce head is quite different from the way George play it in the video from '88 that someone posted before (and who knows if he played the same way when he recorded it).
    I agree with all of that. Good book, some good insights. Lots of great solos to learn but take the fingerings with a grain of salt. I think Wolf Marshall did a great job though.

    Mark

  15. #1464

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    [QUOTE=Mark78_blues;552346]GB said his right hand technique is the 40s way of playing (guitar players in the 40s tend to hold the pick like that).
    That makes sense, have a look at this video with Floyd Smith, one of the pioneer of electric guitar:
    /QUOTE]

    Great find! Thanks for posting that. (Dug the tune too---I'm nuts about organ combos.)

  16. #1465

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark78_blues View Post
    I think it's a very good book with accurate transcriptions and useful notes on every songs. It gives you good ideas and suggestions about George's linear playing, legato style, slurs etc. The author also thanks Henry Johnson for his insight into the George Benson style! That said, I guess it would take a magician more than a transcriber to get the real fingering George used. For example, I've noticed that the suggested fingering of the Billie's Bounce head is quite different from the way George play it in the video from '88 that someone posted before (and who knows if he played the same way when he recorded it).
    We know from Mark Stefani (who posts here as JazzOnSix) that Wolf Marshall and Henry Johnson are friends. I imagine they've had a few conversations about George. (At the same time, it is my understanding that the guys George taught--and Henry Johnson is one of them---aren't supposed to divulge all that he taught them.)

  17. #1466

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark78_blues View Post
    First of all, let me say this thread is one of the best resource available regarding Benson picking technique (and picking technique in general), so thanks to all who contributed!

    After reading Tuck Andress article and the posts of this thread, I assume a beginner with Benson method should start with the grossest muscles (shoulder bicep and forearm) and then wrist motion and then eventually fingers. Someone also said that arm motion should always be used in the fastest passages, although many players achieved to play very fast with wrist motion (which it's the "shake" movement in JC tutorial) or even thumb/first finger motion (Henry Johnson seems to use that). However the debate about elbow/wrist motion has a long story also - and especially - in traditional picking and it's not my intention to retrace it here.

    Right now I've been using Benson picking for 6-7 months and I'm trying to train arm motion correctly. However it's still not completely clear to me which one is the correct arm motion with Benson grip/hand placement.
    In fact, just like with wrist motion, the Benson method allows the player to use two very different type of arm motion: the traditional one, which is an up and down movement (north/south with north as the head of the player and south as his feet) and a totally new one, similar to oscillation in wrist motion, where the pick moves almost in the same direction of the string (so the forearm doesn't move north/south but east/west).
    I've also noticed that with traditional up/down arm motion I don't anchor much with the pinky, because the elbow is the fulcrum and to get the pick in motion I I change the angle between humerus and forearm (usually the pinky slides gently along the pickguard), whereas if I use the east/west arm motion I have the anchored pinky as a fulcrum, and my whole arm is moving from the shoulder (the angle between humerus and forearm doesn't change at all).

    It's very difficult to see what Benson and other Benson pickers are really doing when playing fast, because movements are so small. Benson sure moves the arm, but how? Does the pick moves east/west in the same direction of the strings or north/south in the traditional way?
    I'm asking these questions because I personally find very difficult to switch from one arm movement to the other. Very different from what I feel playing with wrist motion, where I can easily switch from rotation to oscillation.
    Also,up/down arm motion with Benson grip seems to me a bit uncomfortable whereas east/west arm motion sounds better, and louder if needed (the pick gets the same tone as oscillation) but I can't play so fast (maybe it's just because I'm using new muscles, and I have to train them more).

    In the 60s Newport Festival video you can clearly see Benson anchoring firmly and moving the arm towards the headstock of the guitar, but it's difficult to say if he does that just for accenting some notes (along with rest stroke technique and changing picking angle for more "slanting" and in-stroke out-stroke technique). In other videos he seems to "float" more with his hand, especially in very fast playing, using a more traditional up/down arm motion (which results in anchoring at the elbow more than at the pinky…you can see his curled fingers gently sliding along the pickguard in an up and down motion).

    So, which arm motion would you guys recommend let's say in a very simple one-string tremolo exercise, for getting the right control/speed with Benson picking and training the right muscles from the start?

    Thank you all!


    Yeah, I've been wondering about this too - especially after what nunocpinto wrote after studying with Peter Farrell. I'm gonna guess he meant that when George uses his arm on faster passages, he was referring to forearm rotation like Troy Grady talks about?

    Nunocpinto, are you able to go into more detail about this if possible? it would be much appreciated

  18. #1467

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark78_blues View Post
    GB said his right hand technique is the 40s way of playing (guitar players in the 40s tend to hold the pick like that).
    That makes sense, have a look at this video with Floyd Smith, one of the pioneer of electric guitar:
    Bill Doggett et son orchestre - Vidéo Ina.fr
    I enjoyed that a lot - thanks.

    How good was that camera angle on his right hand? Isn't it weird that with all the footage of Benson floating around we still haven't found something as detailed as the above clip?

  19. #1468
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark78_blues View Post
    GB said his right hand technique is the 40s way of playing (guitar players in the 40s tend to hold the pick like that).
    That makes sense, have a look at this video with Floyd Smith, one of the pioneer of electric guitar:
    Bill Doggett et son orchestre - Vidéo Ina.fr
    Outstanding post - thanks you!

  20. #1469
    destinytot Guest
    Sometimes I wish I'd studied more Maths and Science at school; I like how Physics offers insight into otherwise-invisible forces, and I found Troy Grady's observations fascinating and compelling.

    And re. Mark78_blues question about the use of the arm, I think Tuck Andress nailed it with 'torque'.

    However, I think what's most important is that this occurs in the context of making manifest not just sound but groove (something akin to prosodic elements of speech), which can be practised - and made one's own.

    The tentative approach to groove in the video I posted in comment no. 1583 seems to be working nicely for me. For example, left-hand fingering became obvious yesterday when studying Benson playing that turnaround in Stella.

    It's a small step, and though I couldn't do it without 'exploded viewing' - i.e. visually, with speed setting at 0.5 and pausing every three or four notes ('chunking'?) - what confirms that it's 'right' (for me) is the feel of the groove (i.e.kinesthetic) produced by rotation.

    Intention directs groove, technique is the means by which this is achieved. (I find it interesting that one word for 'guitar pick/plectrum' in French is médiator.)

    The sounds can be heard in the music itself, but that's not the full story.

    The lines I've transcribed (actually written down) have come from trumpet and flute, and I've never thought about there being a 'right' way to finger them. Thanks to Mr Grady's detailed scientific explanations, mechanical advantage promises to make music not only possible but also... quite exhilarating.

    Nevertheless, I would argue that (i) the important benefits of transcribing come from the act of transcribing itself, and (ii) musicians may be master practitioners and exemplifiers of mechanical advantage by means of the application of Maths, Physics and Engineering, but they are not 'the burning bush'. I would look elsewhere - beyond music - for insight into how best to achieve torque. (My two cents say "Tai chi!")
    Last edited by destinytot; 07-25-2015 at 06:05 AM.

  21. #1470

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    Quote Originally Posted by setemupjoe
    His hand plays in one position for one octave then moves to a practically identical fingering of the scale either one octave up or down.
    So does that mean that he's using one fingering per scale/arpeggio, with some adjustments when the B and high E strings are involved?

    On the video where he plays the G major scale, I see him switch positions before reaching the root of the scale. I don't have my guitar with me but it seems that he switches when he reaches the fifth.

    And how do you play major thirds ? Do you use the big stretch, do you slide or do you simply play it on the bext string ? I always do the latter.

  22. #1471

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3625 View Post
    I enjoyed that a lot - thanks.

    How good was that camera angle on his right hand? Isn't it weird that with all the footage of Benson floating around we still haven't found something as detailed as the above clip?
    I know! You would think there would be, given that more cameras are now used to shoot live performances and it is known that many guitarists are interested in right hand technique (and not just George's, but certainly George's!)

  23. #1472

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    Speaking of technique and its influence on style, here's a piece from NY Times about a classically trained pianist who re-learned things with the technique of Mozart's era. (I posted this in the Chit Chat / OT section but no one commented. Perhaps someone here will see a connection between this and the questions we are asking about how technique shapes sound / style.)

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/21/sc...DEVREMARK&_r=2

  24. #1473

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot View Post
    Some interesting viewing in Benson's Ibanez LGB30 promo video - here are the (unaccompanied) playing parts only:
    Nice. Really liked the double stops. Speaking of which, Mark Stefani has transcribed a lot of George's early stuff and has a lot to share about "Benson burner" double stops. I heard from him this week and he's been working on other things but should make his way back to the Forum and this thread soon. I hope so. That cat knows a lot and he can teach it.

  25. #1474
    destinytot Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    Nice. Really liked the double stops. Speaking of which, Mark Stefani has transcribed a lot of George's early stuff and has a lot to share about "Benson burner" double stops. I heard from him this week and he's been working on other things but should make his way back to the Forum and this thread soon. I hope so. That cat knows a lot and he can teach it.
    Hope so. There's a time and a place for everything - including getting 'down and dirty'!
    Last edited by destinytot; 07-25-2015 at 10:07 AM.

  26. #1475

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    The above video clearly shows Benson's picking and motions. Big time downward pick slanting, whole arm moving during his sweeping. and if you watch on the faster passages, He's scalpel picking( i think troy try's to call this circle picking), you can see his thumb and first finger moving the pick !!!!. he also love's to lock his thumb, usually before going to a more rotation style of picking. Really he's combining everything. at all times but i think the last few video's and armed with the picking knowledge in the last 10 pages or so....the mystery has been solved. It's Just now being worked out! with a few of the boyz ,practicing this type of picking. i'm sure a few of you guys will be flying soon.



    its everyone still puzzled ? just curious

    p.s loved the positional playing discovery's!!! and Benson's comments on.... if he hears the passage going higher his hands and body also reflect that mechanic. A true golden Nugget !! and after hearing that ! i clearly see that at work in his playing... and see how this works from a psychological perspective.