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  1. #1

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    I have guitars in my collection featuring a wide variety of tone woods and have difficulty ascribing tonal differences between them based on the wood selected for their construction. For example, of my three Heritage Eagles, one is all mahogany, another has a spruce top and mahogany back and sides, while the third consists of a spruce soundboard with maple back and sides.

    Applying what I have read over the years to those instruments, I would think that the maple and spruce guitar would be the brightest, whereas that is not at all the case. In fact, the brightest of the three is the all mahogany instrument, while the other two are about even.

    I would say that my consideration of tonewood selection has lessened over the years because of my relative inability to consistently hear tonal differences between instruments made of varying woods.

    Below is a sample of the material I've looked at in regards to wood selection. I was hoping to find out how much of this board's experience correlates to what has been written.

    Ervin Somogyi: Articles: Tonewoods in Guitars

    Alternative Tonewoods

    ToneWoods

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  3. #2

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    I am skeptical about any and all opinions regarding the quality of the wood, carved vs pressed vs laminated, etc., in an amplified instrument.

    First of all, there are so many variables involved in sound production, which can be affected by external variables like humidity and temperature. A lot of opinions regarding tonewoods are based on received wisdom:

    The Heretic's Guide to Alternative Lutherie Woods

    Second, you are talking about a box under tension with strings run across it. Most of the acoustic sound comes from the air moving around inside the box. In the case of an amplified guitar, you are literally magnifying the electrical impulses from the vibrating steel strings.

    It was shown a long time ago by the master luthier Torres (the "inventor" of the modern guitar) that the most important part of the acoustic guitar was the soundboard, not the other parts of the box.

    "While Torres was not the first to use this method he was the one who perfected the symmetrical design. To prove that it was the top, and not the back and sides of the guitar that gave the instrument its sound, in 1862 he built a guitar with back and sides of papier-mâché. (This guitar resides in the Museu de la Musica in Barcelona, and before the year 2000 it was restored to playable condition by the brothers Yagüe, Barcelona)."

    Antonio Torres Jurado - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Not to say that tonewoods have zero effect on the sound of an amplified archtop, but the most important considerations would be the top material, the bracing and the nature of the pickups.
    Last edited by Doctor Jeff; 02-12-2015 at 12:41 PM.

  4. #3

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    I agree with the Doc.

    A lot of fuss is made about tone woods but in reality so many variables are involved that the quality of it would be lost in the mix.

    In theory a master luther would be able to get the best out of poor to high quality tone wood but then on the other hand, he could also make a cheap piece of non toned wood sound almost identical.

    I mean close enough that under a sound test, you would not be able to tell.

    Also no two guitars even if made out of the same lump of wood will sound the same

    When you put it like this, then yes the 'Tone Wood' debate appears to be more of a 'PAF' market ;-)

    More importnat to me is the bracing, thats what either makes a guitar sound good/balanced or not. Then it would be the Fholes as they do have great importance on the over all tone.

  5. #4

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    I need to pick up a guitar and test this, but if the back has no effect on sound, the acoustic character would be unaffected by whether the back was flush against your stomach, as opposed to at a slight angle, leaving it undamped, right?

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by nopedals
    I need to pick up a guitar and test this, but if the back has no effect on sound, the acoustic character would be unaffected by whether the back was flush against your stomach, as opposed to at a slight angle, leaving it undamped, right?
    A solid back imo does sound better when kept way from the belly.

  7. #6

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    I really enjoyed The Heretic's Guide to Alternative Lutherie Woods . Thanks for posting it.

  8. #7

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    This is the most agreement I've ever seen in a thread on tone woods!

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by drbhrb
    This is the most agreement I've ever seen in a thread on tone woods!

    Don't worry I'm sure thats about to change :-)

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by nopedals
    I need to pick up a guitar and test this, but if the back has no effect on sound, the acoustic character would be unaffected by whether the back was flush against your stomach, as opposed to at a slight angle, leaving it undamped, right?
    Nopedals, Yes, I think your logic is correct. I sit in a room with 4 other archtop players each week. Last week, we performed this exact exercise, and that is what we experienced. I have no doubt that a slight angle which leaves the back free to resonate increases the volume of the instrument.

  11. #10

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    Hmmmm ... I think I'll just politely say that I disagree with most of what I'm reading in tho thread about wood and tone and leave it at that.

  12. #11

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    I do believe that different tonewoods have an influence on a sound of a guitar, based upon their damping properties. However their sonic influence pales compared to the influence of the builder and top. A great guitar can be made from many types of tonewoods in the hands of a master artisan. This has been demonstrated time and time again.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    Don't worry I'm sure thats about to change :-)
    I thank you for the segue . . I'll try not to disappoint.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
    Hmmmm ... I think I'll just politely say that I disagree with most of what I'm reading in tho thread about wood and tone and leave it at that.
    I'm with you. As a wood-a-holic, and player, It's hard to imagine that centuries of luthiers, players, and scientists have been wrong all along about this. It's best to just walk away.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by skykomishone
    I'm with you. As a wood-a-holic, and player, It's hard to imagine that centuries of luthiers, players, and scientists have been wrong all along about this. It's best to just walk away.
    Its interesting how two people can get two different ideas from history. If anything history has told us that indeed the wood doesn't matter, well certainly not as much as marketing departments and builders want you to think.

    Science will tell you the fundamental differences in wood properties but no one is denying that. What I'm saying is that when you start cutting it and mixing it with other woods and variables, it all starts to become less relevant.

    Bob showed us this himself with the knotty Pine guitar.

    There is no debate but there are degrees within the debate that can be misleading (imo).

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    Its interesting how two people can get two different ideas from history. ...
    Bob showed us this himself with the knotty Pine guitar.
    Wow. He made 1. That's quite a poplar idea!

  17. #16

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    Like Jim, I disagree with those who say the difference is bearly discernible.

    Try sampling one of Bob Benedetto's top tier arch tops made with master grade European spruce . . then sample another, even from Bob . . or from a different builder, made with sitka. Try sampling two different Hertiage H575s . . one made with a sitka spuce top . . the other with a flamed maple. Try comparing an Engleman spruce top with a European spruce top.

    There is a reason that cello makers almost exclusively choose European spruce . . and almost always from the same country and sometimes specific region.

    Try tellin CF Martin that tone wood doesn't matter . . . or McPherson.

    Ask a well seasoned master luthier about how and why a spruce top with hazelficht (bear claw) will *generally* be brighter and with a more rapid response. Ask the luthiers at Ramirez why they settle for nothing less than what they specify when buying tone wood . . . where tone is a critical criteria for the best classical guitars and guitarists in the world. Slap a laminate flamed maple top on a Ramirez classical guitar and see how Julian Breem sounds (would have sounded) on that guitar . . then come back and tell me that tone woods don't matter.

    Of course, if you choose to route two enormous holes in an arch top for inset humbuckers, drill it out for four control knobs, fit it with a 6 oz TOM bridge, then slobber it up with a stickey gooy plasitcizer laden 25 mil thick version of something that's supposed to be NCL . . . . . then, yeah . . . all bets are off.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick2
    Like Jim, I disagree with those who say the difference is bearly discernible.

    Try sampling one of Bob Benedetto's top tier arch tops made with master grade European spruce . . then sample another, even from Bob . . or from a different builder, made with sitka.

    Try playing two of Bobs guitars made the same way from the same wood. They're gonna sound exactly the same right?

    Then if not what is it your expecting this tone wood to do.

    Unlike Ronseel it doesn't do what it ses on the tin.

    Don't get me wrong, Im not saying there isn't a difference and that I myself am driven by those differences but once in a while, I come across a guitar that breaks all those rules. Am I supposed to ignore that?

    The problem I have, is that its all so massively subjective. Now I take each guitar on a case by case basis.

    Yes generally Maple is more glassy, spruce can be brighter and or darker with a quicker or slower attack lol

    You see where I'm going?
    Last edited by Archie; 02-12-2015 at 04:37 PM.

  19. #18

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    I have introduced myself here on a number of occasions as a hobbiest guitar builder. I actually took some classes from Ervin in choosing top woods for guitars. I have also met Bob and had him review one of my first guitars. He is a very nice guy. He brought the first guitar he ever made and showed it to me. Anyway, my thought with regards to what is being discussed here is that indeed guitars are pretty complicated. I don't know anybody who builds (including Mr. Taylor) who would willingly admit to any complete understanding of how guitars end up sounding the way they do. As a builder, I would say the best I can do is work towards a goal. If I am building a guitar for someone who wants a bright shimmery acoustic, I will work through the entire project making adjustments towards that end. Certainly tone woods are important, and maybe more important is the individual piece of wood (more than the species of wood). A piece of spruce can sound absolutely dead, or it can sing to you when you pick it up. How the guitar is constructed can compensate for tone woods to some extent, and there are many adjustments in things like bracing that can effect tone. Still, I am always a bit surprised the first time I string up an instrument. I think that for a given design, a luthier could make some good guesses as to how a guitar will sound with different woods, but it is still going to pay dues to thousand and one variables that govern every guitar's sound.
    My experience is largely building acoustic guitars where this stuff really makes a big difference. If you are building an electric guitar, you have to worry about the acoustics of course, but how the guitar sounds electrically will be driven by the acoustic tone and then heavily shaded by the pickups.
    All this is just my opinion. I have listened to some really great luthiers, but I am an amateur at best.
    Bill

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
    Try playing two of Bobs guitars made the same way from the same wood. They're gonna sound exactly the same right?

    Then if not what is it your expecting this tone wood to do.

    Unlike Ronseel it doesn't do what it ses on the tin.

    Don't get me wrong, Im not saying there isn't a difference and that I myself am driven by those differences but once in a while, I come across a guitar that breaks all those rules. Am I supposed to ignore that?

    The problem I have, is that its all so massively subjective. Now I take each guitar on a case by case basis.

    Yes generally Maple is more glassy, spruce can be brighter and or darker with a quicker or slower attack lol

    You see where I'm going?
    Sure, I see where you're going. That's not the debate at all . . at least as I see it. The implied comment and resulting question from Klatu, the OP . . was based upon his sampling of his three different Heritage arch tops . . and stating that he couldn't tell [much] of a difference and therefore in his estimation, tone wood choices don't matter . . at least not to him.

    Of course when working with tone woods there are myriad variables. Solid carved spruce tops may be married with solid or laminate maple backs and may include solid or laminate maple rims. The bindings may be plastic or they may be wood. Only God might know what a specific luthier chose to use for tone bar or X bracing, kerfing and rim supports . . and how thick they might have been cut. (Then again, even he may not know). Similar species of wood will have differing densities of cellulose content, older and slower grown trees (due to less rain fall) will have different size growth rings and grain spacing, a 50 year old tree recently felled will yield planks with different tonal qualities than a 150 year old tree that was felled naturally and laid in a foot of water in a swamp land for the next 20 years. Then, we can discuss how . . and how long the billets were aged. Then we can discuss whether or not the loggers pissed on the logs after they cut the tree down . . and whether the content of their piss was Budweiser, Becks or Heineken. God help up all if it was Strabucks dark Italian roast!!!

    So we do not speak in absolutes as it relates to the effect tone wood choices have on tonal response. We speak in generalities. As you say, it is massively subjective and each guitar will be unique unto itself. But, more often than not . . an arch top guitar made with solid carved European master grade spruce . . and AAAA level solid carved maple backs are going to sound inherently different than those with sitka AAA grade spruce tops and laminate maple back and rims.

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Patrick2
    But, more often than not . . an arch top guitar made with solid carved European master grade spruce . . and AAAA level solid carved maple backs are going to sound inherently different than those with sitka AAA grade spruce tops and laminate maple back and rims.
    There is no doubt that there is a difference between solid carved wood and laminate, so I would submit that the difference between said guitars would have everything to do with the laminated vs solid contrast and imperceptibly little to do with the AAAA vs AAA quality spruce top.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Klatu
    There is no doubt that there is a difference between solid carved wood and laminate, so I would submit that the difference between said guitars would have everything to do with the laminated vs solid contrast and imperceptibly little to do with the AAAA vs AAA quality spruce top.
    I agree...

    These non-standard grading of woods appeared over the last 10-20 years. AAAAA, AAAA and master grade are all based upon visual criteria like, grain count, visual runout, silking etc. and have very little to do with the set or billet's potential sonically. A master grade set is a set select by a master luthier period. It can be AA aesthetically or AAAAA aesthetically. They are more interested in density, cross-grain stiffness, structural runout, its seasoning and tap tone. Luthiers stock pretty sets because they know that they sell. Players love pretty guitars.

    Regarding European Spruce (e.g. Norway Spruce, Picea Abies), it is my favorite of spruces. Guys like Rudolph Bachmann, Martin Guhl, John Preston and Rivolta all supply wonderful sets and billets. That being said, there is huge overlap between the species. Great guitars can be made from North American species such as Engelmann and Lutz spruce as well. In the end, it is about the individual set and the person crafting the guitars ability to find the music in the tree.

    My $.02
    Last edited by iim7V7IM7; 02-12-2015 at 06:04 PM.

  23. #22
    a friend of mine just bought 2 SJ200s, one with koa and one with walnut back. Same build, same top, same etc. The sound of these two guitars is as different as night and day. Recordings with equal strings and ultra-high qual studio mics were made, acoustic and amplified, and the comparison makes one really wonder. Yes, that's flattops and not archtops, but I believe still an interesting reference point in this discussion.

  24. #23

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    Same stuff, different day ... I posted this last week in a thread here that also discussed the impact of wood (among other things) ... I still stand by this. I would also suggest to some folks that if you don't find the answer you expect, do not assume that no answers exist. That is not a logical certainty. You may even be asking the wrong question.

    I'll make some blanket statements about tone wood and those statements are based on experiences with a LOT of guitars with the exact same construction type and design specifications. I did a lot of controlled experiments changing only one or two variables at a time and I have some beliefs that I think are pretty well founded and realistic.

    First, I believe is that wood types do not have a specific tonal response but rather a range of possible reposes that fit into a tonal type. Take a sample of many guitars with identical construction,wood and electronics and they won't all sound the same but they will all (or at least almost all) fit into the specified tonal range.

    Second, I believe that different wood types have their own tonal ranges. Those ranges may overlap in some instance and not in others.

    Third, I believe that once the woods, design, building method and electronics have been selected, an experienced builder can describe the tonal range into which a guitar will fit before the first piece of wood has been cut and be right in the overwhelming majority of instances.

    All of that adds up to this: I believe that tone wood makes a difference. That difference is not 100% predictable and it is not narrowly specific but it is real and in a large sample will overwhelmingly fit the tonal range anticipated by an experienced builder.
    Last edited by Jim Soloway; 02-12-2015 at 06:03 PM.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Socalbill
    I have also met Bob and had him review one of my first guitars. He is a very nice guy. He brought the first guitar he ever made and showed it to me.
    Out of curiosity, what were your impressions of Bob's first build?

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7
    <snip> A great guitar can be made from many types of tonewoods in the hands of a master artisan. <snip>
    True. But what about a factory guitar as played by 98.75% of those reading this thread? For the most part, in a factory guitar everything is pretty much done the same so there are no special considerations for variations in a given wood sample. In this environment a species is selected on general suitability, cost, and availability. Unless there is a readily detectable flaw, all sets are applied regardless of their potential or lack thereof. Guitar tonewoods will be left to perform 'on average' and are not uniquely tuned by master artisans.

    Does wood selection matter in an acoustic archtop or flat top? Absolutely. Does it matter in an electric archtop? I'm not convinced when it comes to stage volumes but running a 5 watt amp late at night listening to each nuance of the sound it likely does.