What notation software to get?

[ecj]

Hey guys - pretty simple question. I want to start getting into doing more writing, and I know I need to join the 21st century and get some notation software. I'm a total newbie to this world.

I run a mac at home. I have a little Sternberg interface that I'm using to start some small recording projects, and I've just been using Garageband and iMovie for those. I also have a keyboard with midi.

My goals are to (1) make lead sheets for the tunes I regularly play in the keys I play them for when I want to play with other folks, (2) write lead sheets and arrangements for some things I'm writing, and (3) start keeping better records of my licks and exercises. So something that could do full scoring, lead sheet creation, and had some kind of built in guitar tab or chord charts would be awesome.

What would you guys recommend?

[targuit]

Sibelius or Finale generally. My experience is limited to Sibelius G7, a now legacy product I purchased for $60 or so onsale several years ago. Best software expense for the buck. I'm sure there are other options, but Sibelius is a good choice for your purposes. Not the expensive version - there is a starter version like mine that is more than adequate, unless you are scoring for orchestras, etc.

My Sibelius software is installed on a home PC desktop. I suppose I could install it on my MacBook laptop, but given that the software is 'old', I thought I would buy the newest inexpensive version for that purpose. There is a "learning curve" that initially can be annoying, but once you get the hang of it, you will love using it.

If you would use this for gigs as a personal fakebook library of transcriptions of your 'set list', one could consider installing on an iPad or something. I've no experience with that, but I'm sure one could research it or talk to a Sibelius tech. My laptop is pretty portable, but the iPad is more compact. Could work both ways. The larger screen size may be preferable. You could transpose the music relatively quickly into another key. One possibility is to copy the song you created in one key, create a "new" template, paste the copy, and then with a click or two you transpose it to a new key.

Although I don't bother using tablature, there is that capability. The problem is that it would double the size of your transcription, which is a negative in terms of real time use, imo. And you can't read tab quickly in a performance situation. But then again, using notation software is a great teaching aid for reading notation.

Although I don't bother creating "chord diagrams" above the staff, you can do that quite nicely. I do like to have Sibelius "create the chord symbols from the notes", eg, Dm7b5, above the melody line. And of course you can easily enter lyrics as well.

If you would like to see an example of what these things can look like, drop me a PM with a song 'request' (my personal transcription library is over 200 songs) and I'll e-mail you an attachment. Most of my songs are scored simply as a melody staff and a 'guitar' staff. KISS applies here unless you need to score for a quartet or something. The great part is you can assign a vibraphone or tenor sax to the melody line and practice soloing over the music. Or comping.

This will turbocharge your playing, no doubt. You will never look back. The synergy thing is great.

Jay

[fep]

I've used Sibelius for past ten or so years. I have the full blown Sibelius 6. Now they've moved on to Sibelius 7. It's great software imo. The only problem is it's really expensive. I was taking music classes when I bought it and got it for half price which was about $250. I had to retire my XP computer and I can't move my old Sibelius to my new computer. To repurechase Sibelius, $600.

Before Sibelius I was using Finale.

I'm now using MuseScore. It has a UI similar to Sibelius and it's free. It does everything I need. It doesn't currently have tab or chord diagrams though. Current version is 1.3. You can make simple lead sheets or all the way to orchestral scores or Big band scores with MuseScore including printing individual parts transposed for the transposing instruments.

MuseScore 2.0 is in beta and it does include tab and chord diagrams.

I encourage my friends and past bandmates to use MuseScore because of the benefit of us all using the same software for sharing files and collaborating.

I wish you could try both Sibelius and MuseScore but I wouldn't recommend it even if Sibelius gave you a free trial period (not sure if they do). The problem is that these are very robust softwares and consequently there is a significant effort in learning how to operate the software. Your first several scores will take you more time to create than if you were to do it by hand. Once you get up and running you'll be able to create scores faster with the software than by hand and of course they'll be beautiful and very easy to edit.

Bottom line Sibelius, Finale and MuseScore are all great Notation softwares. MuseScore is free.

[targuit]

Frank, with MuseScore can you enter notation in real time? You know, play it in with a synth keyboard? Or in step-time for that matter. I find that typing in the notes off the computer keys is rather tedious by comparison with just playing it in.

I imagine the full-blown programs are expensive, but there is likely no need to spend beyond the starter version.

Jay

[fep]

Targuit, you can enter notes with a midi instrument in step time. I don't believe musescore has note entry in real time.

I was doing several things that required me to use the full blown Sibelius, primarily writing scores with many parts and printing the individual parts for musicians. There were other features that G7 didn't have that I needed but I can't remember the details, it was years ago. G7 was a tease for me, I could see what was possible, but I needed the other features.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I used finale back in the day, and then downgraded to things like Finale Notepad with new machines until I found MuseScore. I found that it could do pretty much anything I wanted except for the chord grids and tab. The new 2.0 beta has those now and is a pretty nice upgrade overall. I probably haven't used it long enough to really judge, but I actually have both (real 1.X version and beta 2.0) running on my machine right now.

I've been using the MuseScore 2.0 beta for about a week or so. I really like the updates on it, and it seems a lot more stable than the "Nightly Build" developmental versions I've used in the past to try and get some tab done. Of course the non-beta is rock solid, and I think the 2.0 is close to being finished. The beta's pretty solid as well, I repeatedly slammed ctrl-X last night, forgetting that I was using a beta version, and when I reopened it prompted me to open a recovery file. Nice...

The chord grid editor is pretty basic but is a great addition. It's got tab, a "concert pitch" toggle button for editing transposing instruments etc. I really like that now, a mouse-over of any button reveals the shortcut keys. It's got a midi entry toggle on the home screen, but I haven't used any midi entry in several years (with anything).

I would definitely check it out. It's always going to be a little behind the paid apps, but it's so robust now that I would have to have some deal-breaker features in my sights to put me over the line for using something else. I would imagine that, at this point, Sibelius and Finale sales are riding pretty heavily on the legacy users that already know those programs. If you're starting from scratch, I don't see much down side to using free MuseScore.

[ecj]

Thanks, guys. Seems like MuseScore is probably the way to go for my needs.

Targuit - I'm not trying to do everything simultaneously. I just want to be able to make lead sheets, and then make scores for more intricate arrangements, and also tab out some exercises that I've been working on.

[targuit]

Why do you want tab? I ask this question seriously. Don't you as educators (those who teach guitar) feel any obligation to teach aspiring guitarists "grown-up musicianship"? What other group of musicians (pianists, woodwinds, horns, strings) rely on tablature?

Oh, I know - guitarists are dumber than dirt and cannot learn to read notation - apparently it is genetic...

[mr. beaumont]

I feel an obligation as an educator to get my students making music. Not every student is the same...10 year old kid, picking up an instrument for the first time? You bet he learns to read. 26 year old guy with a newborn who's hacked away since he was 16, wants to learn john mayer and srv licks but never learned to read music? Tabulature's just fine.

[mhch]

I'm a Sibelius user for transcriptions and the like, but to create lead sheets, I use ... Excel (or OpenOffice) which is quite adapted (a bar = a cell, 4 or 8 cells per row, most often 4). Main reasons arethe the much faster startup time and ease of layout control which is a pain with sophisticated notation programs.

I also use the row of cells right above the ones containing chord names: scales and notes refering to the cells (or group of) immediately below.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Why do you want tab? I ask this question seriously. Don't you as educators (those who teach guitar) feel any obligation to teach aspiring guitarists "grown-up musicianship"? What other group of musicians (pianists, woodwinds, horns, strings) rely on tablature?

Oh, I know - guitarists are dumber than dirt and cannot learn to read notation - apparently it is genetic...

I don't think it's that guitarists are dumber. You're the one always saying that....

It has to do with the idiosyncratic nature of the instrument itself. I think the guitar is quite unique in the repetitions of unison pitches across multiple strings etc. The notation of classical guitar music makes this evident. It's replete with additional, descriptive, notated elements to illustrate exactly what you're looking at in terms of string sets and fret numbers etc. You could say that all of that is unnecessary, but that would be silly.

I think the instrument is unique and complex enough. There are some things that are just simpler to illustrate by rote, chord grid, picture, or (God forbid) tab. I think that it's ridiculous to say that learning things by ear or by rote is categorically without value - in any circumstance whatsoever.

Now, if you're saying that it's questionable for a student or educator to only use tab and never learn to read notation, you could make that argument, but that's a completely different conversation from "why would you you ever use tab?". That question just seems as ridiculous as "Why would you ever use notation?".

I learned to read notation from Rev. William Bay himself. Now, I had learned to play saxophone at school, and using only the Bayster's book, I learned to read notation all by myself, without any outside input. Now, back in those days (before interwebs) there wasn't youtube or anything like that. How did I learn to read the notation?

With the coupling of the notational symbols and non-musical, guitar fretboard grids and pictures of Dr. Rev. Bay playing the notes! Is this heresy? I don't think so. I'm pretty sure that Frederick Noad and many other classical cats have done the same thing in there books. The simplest way is often the best. Whatever will get the job done.

I want the student to hang with me long enough to learn to read some notation. The amount of reading skill required to read and play Sweet Home Alabama or Stairway to Heaven (sorry, those tunes do pay the bills) in standard notation is completely out of proportion with the playing skill required to perform those non-classical tunes.

What is your deal with this? Do you feel this way about chord grids? Do you feel this way about the chord pro formatted voicings that are daily posted on this forum. Do you feel this way about the illustrations, diagrams and photography in the books of Christopher Parkening, Frederick Noad or Scott Tennant? Why do you feel such a strong need to "save" grown, adults from the wickedness of tablature? Come on.

Try it just a little bit... A little won't hurt you... Everybody's doing it...

Well, just kidding there. I probably need to get my life right, I guess...

[Flyin' Brian]

I think the guitar is quite unique in the repetitions of unison pitches across multiple strings etc. The notation of classical guitar music makes this evident. It's replete with additional, descriptive, notated elements to illustrate exactly what you're looking at in terms of string sets and fret numbers etc.

I think that violinists, cellists and other classical string players would disagree with this.

The only thing unique about guitar is that its origins were more folk or whatever they called it centuries ago and people used them to accompany vocals. You don't need music or TAB for that matter to accompany Home On The Range.

But tab gives nothing that standard notation doesn't offer. If you walk into a recording session in LA you're not going to see TAB on any music stands. OTOH, you're not going to need a chart to play Mustang Sally either.

The Nashville Numbering System is something else again.

Different situations...different tools.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I think that violinists, cellists and other classical string players would disagree with this.

The only thing unique about guitar is that its origins were more folk or whatever they called it centuries ago and people used them to accompany vocals. You don't need music or TAB for that matter to accompany Home On The Range.

But tab gives nothing that standard notation doesn't offer. If you walk into a recording session in LA you're not going to see TAB on any music stands. OTOH, you're not going to need a chart to play Mustang Sally either.

The Nashville Numbering System is something else again.

Different situations...different tools.

I understand that, but they are not exactly the same. I'm talking about degrees of difference really. Six strings tuned in fourths and a third is quite different from four strings tuned in fifths . Many more iterations.

Incidentally, I'm not advocating for tab only. I've never said that. Again, do you have a place for chord grids? Does that somehow invalidate the use of notation? Should we all notate all chords and voicings using standard notation?

[matt.guitarteacher]

By the way, this statement:

If you walk into a recording session in LA you're not going to see TAB on any music stands.

...is almost certainly true, but that doesn't make this one true:

But tab gives nothing that standard notation doesn't offer.

Now this one:

Different situations...different tools.

Absolutely! In fact, I'm pretty sure that's what I was saying in my other reply...

[ecj]

Why do you want tab? I ask this question seriously. Don't you as educators (those who teach guitar) feel any obligation to teach aspiring guitarists "grown-up musicianship"? What other group of musicians (pianists, woodwinds, horns, strings) rely on tablature?

Oh, I know - guitarists are dumber than dirt and cannot learn to read notation - apparently it is genetic...

Well, I'm not an educator. The only person I'm educating is myself.

I actually read pretty well for a guitar player. I want tab because I'm starting to document some of the exercises I've used to get my technique together over the last year, and I want to be able to put down how things are executed on the instrument. If I write out a lick in standard notation, there are probably at least 10 different ways to finger that particular lick in that particular octave on guitar, and I'm trying to figure out what the best way is to document the way I do it, including fret position, fingers used, and picking direction.

Seems like tab is generally a part of that.

Same deal with chord voicings.

[danwaineo]

Guys, I love Noteflight:

Noteflight - Online Music Notation Software

It's cloud based, fast, and very intuitive. The first 10 songs are free. I've got 42 songs up there now. There is a tab feature, but I've never used it.

I have nothing against tab. Reading music is not very helpful for rock styles.

This is a song I wrote last weekend (titled by my daughter).

Create a user name and give it a try.

[fep]

@danwaineo

Good looking lead sheet. (I haven't tried Noteflight).

[Philco]

Well, I'm not an educator. The only person I'm educating is myself.

I actually read pretty well for a guitar player. I want tab because I'm starting to document some of the exercises I've used to get my technique together over the last year, and I want to be able to put down how things are executed on the instrument. If I write out a lick in standard notation, there are probably at least 10 different ways to finger that particular lick in that particular octave on guitar, and I'm trying to figure out what the best way is to document the way I do it, including fret position, fingers used, and picking direction.

Seems like tab is generally a part of that.

Same deal with chord voicings.

Just a thought ecj…….In regard to documenting ideas I have found my iPad to be fantastic for recording short videos of ideas or groups of ideas. Then I upload into my Mac and store them on iPhoto and also in "the cloud".

So in iPhoto I have folders with titles like "Sonny Stitt Licks", "Sonny Rollins Licks", "Melodic Minor Ideas" "Billy Bean Licks, "Song Idea" etc.
Actually hearing and seeing myself play the phrases is a life saver. I play them up to speed and then slowly. You can see fingering and pick strokes. Then I talk to myself about what's cool about the idea and any ways to change it or rephrase it. I also tend to play the original source once in the background so I can see how the original player executed the idea.
Then there are folders of song ideas. I have quite a record of what I've been doing for the past couple of years. You can also see your progress and hear what your tone is like.
Much more alive that dots on paper.
Of course there are probably many uses for the actual notation but I thought I'd mention that filming approach.

As far as recording is concerned I would have said go buy Logic Pro. A fully blown DAW used by so many pros and non pros all over the world. I'm not sure if it can do tab……don't think so. But for under $300 you have a recording studio in your Mac.

[targuit]

I think that it's ridiculous to say that learning things by ear or by rote is categorically without value - in any circumstance whatsoever. - matt


Well, I never said the above statement, Matt. I learned notation first in grade school singing in the chorus. Educating my ears. I learned classical guitar from the age of eleven or twelve. My experience is that is it ultimately easier to learn to read notation in the first place than to create "chord grids" and diagrams. There are books of thousands of useless chords for that. Notation succeeded in the music world because it became the most precise and efficient way to express musical thoughts. It would be like comparing old languages written in calligraphy or elaborate handwritten characters to the alphabet.

I am well aware that old music used tablature to indicate fret positions, but that system was superseded by a more effective system of notation adopted by most of the musical world. I just believe it is ultimately far easier to express musical thought in that manner and that guitarists should avail themselves of the the most efficient system.

Can anyone really read tab as quickly and accurately as notation? I doubt it. So why bother? Plus wouldn't you feel just a bit ignorant to pull out one's tab charts at a gig? I certainly would.

jay

[matt.guitarteacher]

No one ever said that reading complex music was easier with tab. I'm not gonna argue points I never made.

What you did say was "why teach people tab"? That question has been answered by a couple of different people a couple times and you keep ignoring it.

For the record, I teach students to read music. But I also think it's asinine and ignorant to not learn ANY tab on the guitar. It's just my opinion, but it shared by plenty of other people. It's ridiculous to call yourself a modern guitar player and not be able to write out chord diagrams or simple tablature.

Also, the argument for using tablature is not just that the guitar is more difficult to read standard notation on. There's also the consideration that tablature is particularly easy to read on the guitar, even for beginners playing music with rich harmony and otherwise very difficult to read patterns up the fretboard.

It's silly to not teach students moveable scales up the neck or other basic patterns (which are easily written using a graphic display) until they can read at a level which may take years of study.

It's simply a tool. If you never learn notation because of it, that's a separate issue, but it's silly to not use every tool at your disposal.

I use electronic tuners every day, although I can tune by ear. I use things like YouTube , staff paper, smart phones, computers. If your goal is to gig playing jazz or some other kind of session work, then of course you need to have your reading chops together. If you want to really call yourself a musician on any kind of level, it's important to learn to read music. I spend time every day reading and playing from the music notation. But not everybody in the world is learning to play jazz. Not everyone is going to be professional. It doesn't mean they can't learn to play something like dust in the wind or stairway to heaven without taking lessons for multiple years and learning to read music at a level that facilitates that. No one is going to do that. Tab is a simple tool and can be very effective.

I don't think it has lasted because of some Folk tradition or whatever. It's simple, easy to understand, and works really well for certain kinds of simple music. There is a point at which you're better off learning to read notation. But There is also a good reason why tablature is standard in teaching all kinds of homophonic stringed instruments.

[ecj]

Just a thought ecj…….In regard to documenting ideas I have found my iPad to be fantastic for recording short videos of ideas or groups of ideas. Then I upload into my Mac and store them on iPhoto and also in "the cloud".

So in iPhoto I have folders with titles like "Sonny Stitt Licks", "Sonny Rollins Licks", "Melodic Minor Ideas" "Billy Bean Licks, "Song Idea" etc.
Actually hearing and seeing myself play the phrases is a life saver. I play them up to speed and then slowly. You can see fingering and pick strokes. Then I talk to myself about what's cool about the idea and any ways to change it or rephrase it. I also tend to play the original source once in the background so I can see how the original player executed the idea.
Then there are folders of song ideas. I have quite a record of what I've been doing for the past couple of years. You can also see your progress and hear what your tone is like.
Much more alive that dots on paper.
Of course there are probably many uses for the actual notation but I thought I'd mention that filming approach.

That's an interesting thought, Philco. I might have to try something like that.

I'm starting to put some material up on a blog as a kind of practice log. I was thinking about both filming and writing out a lot of exercises, tunes, etc. and then doing blog posts on them as I work with different concepts. I like your idea of indexing things by subject and associating the stuff with the original material.

Cool advice!

As far as recording is concerned I would have said go buy Logic Pro. A fully blown DAW used by so many pros and non pros all over the world. I'm not sure if it can do tab……don't think so. But for under $300 you have a recording studio in your Mac.

For what I'm doing now, Garageband and iMovie seem to work fine. I'm not really that interested in recording multitrack or anything, so I just invested in a couple nice mics and an interface so that I'm getting a better sound from my "live" recordings.

[rictroll]

Well, I'm not an educator. The only person I'm educating is myself.

I actually read pretty well for a guitar player. I want tab because I'm starting to document some of the exercises I've used to get my technique together over the last year, and I want to be able to put down how things are executed on the instrument. If I write out a lick in standard notation, there are probably at least 10 different ways to finger that particular lick in that particular octave on guitar, and I'm trying to figure out what the best way is to document the way I do it, including fret position, fingers used, and picking direction.

Seems like tab is generally a part of that.

Same deal with chord voicings.

Classical guitarists utilize standard notation with indications of string and fret when necessary. What does tab offer beyond that?

[matt.guitarteacher]

Classical guitarists utilize standard notation with indications of string and fret when necessary. What does tab offer beyond that?

Visual, spatial relationships on the fretboard among other things. How about chord grids? What's the difference? Can you honestly say that there's ZERO value in visually sketching out chord forms or scale patterns?

Everybody's different, but I've run into a lot of people who are just more visual. A lot of people sketch out entire neck grids. I'm not into that, but whatever floats your boat. Different strokes...

[rictroll]

Visual, spatial relationships on the fretboard among other things. How about chord grids? What's the difference? Can you honestly say that there's ZERO value in visually sketching out chord forms or scale patterns?

Everybody's different, but I've run into a lot of people who are just more visual. A lot of people sketch out entire neck grids. I'm not into that, but whatever floats your boat. Different strokes...

Understood. Not arguing zero value...

standard notation often utilizes chord grids, fret positions, and fingering patterns.

Also, it makes it easier to see how the melody line relates to the harmony. Phrasing is critical to playing a song.

IMO tab doesn't provide as rich a growth path or reveal the detail of the music as much. But it does reveal many of the mechanical aspects.

On a side note, my wife plays lute and she has to deal with even more 'standards' of notation. So, different strokes indeed.

in the end it takes a musician to make any of this work :-)

[cosmic gumbo]

I can read notation, but I learned about a dozen intricate ragtime guitar arrangements years ago that would have been impossible to correctly execute without the inclusion of tab. I see it's absolute value for unique circumstances, but not as a substitute for standard notation.