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Jonzo. Honest question. How many jazz tunes did you learn this past year?
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09-12-2014 03:28 PM
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I must say, I am having a bit of trouble figuring out the point of this. Is there actually a study out there somewhere that says that the only way to learn anything is to engage in focussed practice or that people can't benefit from distracted practice after they have engaged in focussed practice?
Where is that study? Who has suggested that focussed practice is not valuable? Who has suggested that science is not a valid way of analysing what practice methods are efficient?
I mean - there is some imaginary study out there that apparently says that there is no benefit at all to going over scales and arps and licks while you are sitting in front of your favourite episode of MASH. I am prepared to bet a million dollars that this is not true.
Honestly, this is about the most absurd dispute I have ever encountered on this site.
I think that, if you are not prepared to show us the results of your own method at work, then at least you should site the study which actually states the theory that you are advocating. Specifically - show us a study which states that there is no benefit to distracted practice. Otherwise, this thread is a farce.
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Colin, thank you. I went back and read the last interchange. Given the bolded message, I'm not even sure why I'm discussing this with Jonzo.
Originally Posted by Jonzo
I think I'll stick to talking with folks who actually are interested in learning jazz guitar about jazz guitar.
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ecj - looked at your soundcloud stuff - loved it.
Cheers, Colin.
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Actually, I think Jeff (Mr. B.) raised an interesting question - how many tunes have you learned over a specific time frame? In all honesty, when I hear a new tune that I like, to learn the structure takes me a minimal amount of time. Essentially, I play through the tune off Youtube, for example, once or twice. Writing down the lyrics and chords that I hear. That requires a couple of passes. Then, I score it for myself in Sibelius, so that I can create backing tracks of melody plus accompaniment. With these tracks I then can practice playing improvised melodies over the tracks.
To give a concrete example, one of the more challenging songs I learned the other night was Burt Bacharach's Alfie. What made this song challenging is not the first few verses which are quite easy, but rather the beautiful harmonic progressions in the middle to later part of the song, especially if you are just transcribing by ear without slowing down the tempo. Took me a few more passes than usual to get the harmonies down in that more complex section. I'll link a nice version by Johnny Mathis to illustrate the point.
Now I have been doing this stuff for many decades at this point, so I can get a tune down in a matter of an hour or two with relative ease. The most tedious part initially is writing out the lyrics, though in many cases I can find the lyrics on line to copy and print out. Once I have the basic chordal harmony entered into Sibelius, I just play in the melody on another staff in real time.
As for specific tools or methods for learning jazz guitar and musicianship, I am grateful for the classical guitar lessons I studied with the founder of the RI Classical Guitar Society back in the early Sixties, a gentleman named Hibbard Perry. We followed the Richard Pick and Carcassi methodologies, Sor and Giuliani studies, and the occasional transcription of popular music. I think that from the pov of inspiration, learning real tunes was superior to just doing etudes, even at a relatively early stage. Mr. Perry's approach was to play through the etude(s) for the student and have the student try to play it in real time for him, then assigning more etudes for the next weekly lesson. For me those early days were a half century ago. (sigh....)
But once you get to a certain level of competence as a player, it is all about learning and playing real songs. My favorite composers of jazz are Jerome Kern and Chester Babcock (Jimmy van Heusen). Learning their tunes you are learning jazz guitar theory and musicianship at the highest levels short of true classical composers. And that is how I would teach jazz guitar - by creating etudes from the best songs. Joe Pass was of a similar mind.
Last edited by targuit; 09-12-2014 at 05:17 PM.
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Thanks, Colin! Nice bass movement on Satin Doll. Originally Posted by ColinO
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As regards the issue of practice, again assuming a certain level of competence, there is nothing more effective in my opinion that creating transcriptions with Sibelius or other notation software. Last night for example I was reworking my transcription of The Second Time Around by JVH. A deceptively simple sounding tune, this song is a primer in using certain devices like diminished chords. In particular what I was doing was slowing down the tempo below that at which I would normally perform the song so as to create more elaborate fills. This technique of playing to the backing tracks which you have written, not someone else, is so stimulating and effective as a technique to improve. And of course, it does engage all your attention as if you were playing live with a group.
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Thanks ecj. I'm learning. I know I'm a hack but I think it's important to show what you can do so that people can take your opinions for what they're worth.
I'll post something in a year and I promise it will be better.
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None of us are as good as we want to be. That's what keeps us practicing! Originally Posted by ColinO
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ECJ, you seem to be disagreeing with me suggesting that you do what you already do. I said people should test methods like playing with and without distractions, if they are going to invest a lot of time in that method. You said you did exactly that.
ColinO, you seem to think I am telling you how to practice. This tread is not about TV v. no TV. It is about whether doing these types of tests, in a huge lab with government funding, or on your own, has any relevance. I'm not trying to shove a method down your throat.
Mr. B, how many songs should I have learned this year for an experiment to be relevant? I did an experiment using two similar songs. One method worked better. Doing more songs will make a better experiment, but I haven't done that yet. Usually these types of experiments are done on a small scale, because you want to keep other variables from effecting the results. Scientifically, my experiments proves nothing in terms of what will work for everyone, but they add information. If you do a test yourself, you will know what works best for you. If you want to put down what I am saying because I haven't learned enough tunes, than I am happy to admit I do not know enough tunes.
The OP is about whether a normal person can test two methods for themselves. I am talking about simple things, like morning v. night, TV v. no TV, whole tunes v. sections of tunes. Have any of you addressed this question yet?
I am trying to keep this on a positive note. Half of what I have posted in this thread is questions. I am interested in your answers. If you think I am wrong, I am interested in why. If you aren't interested in the topic, or what I have to say, there are graceful ways to disengage.
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Jonzo, my question wasn't "how many songs did you learn that you measured how efficiently you learbed. How many songs total? Two?
At a certain point, you can analyze to the point of paralysis. But maybe forever analyzing your learning efficiency is easier than actually doing the hard work of learning a bunch of songs.
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The thing is, and apologies, I have not read through this thread - but the science and technology of how to play an instrument has been perfected through years and years of trial and error from the greatest musicians of all time; from Palestrina, through Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Chopin, Liszt, Paganini, Armstrong, through to our modern era. Philosophies on how the mind best works learning are interesting, I suppose. But for my money I'm going to go the tried and true and well proven methods. Besides they're also the ways and means that I've personally applied to myself and many students. When something works, and works extremely well it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to try something unproven. Certainly something that doesn't have the stamp of approval from years of successful application.
From experience this just reminds me of the myriad excuses students will come up with, - me too! - to avoid the task of sitting down to practice. To face the music. I'm laughing because I'm reminded of something I used to do when faced with a daunting task. In this case of writing music. I had to get it done. That's exactly the time, after I had made room for myself at the table, made coffee, sharpened pencils, got out the manuscript paper, that suddenly I had to clean the bathroom, then the kitchen, then wash my car.
When you need to learn, you drill. Don't wait for the moon to turn blue, or force yourself to take a break every 20 minutes or wait till dawn when the mind is most fresh. Just do it. Do it. Do it. If your hand is too tired, take a break. If you're mentally exhausted, take a break. If you have to lower the boiling water under the noodles, take a break. But for gods sake, get some practicing done, in front of a TV, in a closet, in your underwear, in the dark, in a crowd, at the park. For gods sake, just get it frigging done. Who in the bloody hell cares how it's done? Wait till the moon's in Capricorn, or whatever. If it works for you, do it that way. Geez.
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Read this again. Originally Posted by Jonzo
Slowly.
Now ask yourself, "Why do I treat people who have been getting good results for years---as players and teachers---like they know less about learning to play jazz well than I do?" (<<<<You may not intend to come off that way, but you do. Don't take my word for it, ask around.)
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The OP was not about me personally, or whether everyone should do exactly what I do. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Anything overdone can be counterproductive. You seem to be avoiding giving an answer to the OP.
I don't think you are being snarky. You always try to be polite. But your questions are off track.
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Or in my case, instead of hunkering down on improvisation practice, I decided to learn another hard rock, Blues, grunge or metal song. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
I probably have over a hundred of my favorite songs memorized, Rhythm and lead (and bass on some), but I still have not sat down and really perfected improvisation to one Jazz song - I mean inside and out mastery of a Jazz song (although I do have memorized solos that sound OK).
I had promised to really dig into "Along Came Betty" on a recent business trip, and ended up memorizing "Bullet with Butterfly Wings."
God bless this child...
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Jonzo,
I have a proposal.
For the next five years, do what ever you think you have to do to prove whatever it is think you have to prove.
During this time leave the rest of alone to pursue our paths as we see fit. Especially those of us who have gotten results from methods that you dispute or try to discredit.
We'll all meet back here in five years and see who's playing their asses off. I'll bring the beer and pizza.
Regards,
Jerome
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Jerome,
So you posted to a thread I started just to tell me to leave you alone?
Reminds me of the girl who keeps calling to say she never wants to speak to you again.
i posted a question. I am open to all answers.
i am trying to think of any other forum where the idea of testing two methods to determine what works best would be controversial.
The problem with your suggestion is that over 5 years, too many variables would come into play. For an experiment to be valid, you need to control variables.Last edited by Jonzo; 09-16-2014 at 10:50 PM.
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Not interested in having my comments moderated for disagreeing with you. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
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It seems like your the girl who keeps coming back. It seems like a bit of self abuse. I always take things in very small chunks. But that's not new. I never try and learn the whole song all at once. Little sections. But if that's what you're talking about there's nothing new in that.
I'm having a hard time understanding you. This is a guitar players, -- a jazz guitar players forum. You aren't particularly interested in playing or learning guitar, but you want to tell everyone else how to practice or learn jazz guitar, based wholly on completely specious data. Yet you just want to debate and argue and pose as a self appointed expert. You have some very professional and accomplished guitarists here who are more than willing to give advice, but you're more interested in passing yourself off as an expert, yet you have little or no ability, experience or even desire. Yet you still feel it is within your purview to lecture others, quite didactically, about methodology. No one seems to give you much latitude, yet you keep coming back for more. I just don't understand.
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I get disappointed when I see these potentially interesting threads descend into personal attacks where individual egos attack and defend something that is pointless, excepting the imaginary verification of one's own intellectual or moral superiority.
And all without a shred of humour.... tsk tsk tsk.
Being careful to cross our "T's" and dot our "I's" , or to point to a poorly made contention several pages back into a thread (or indeed another thread altogether) in order to undermine or ridicule, reminds me of reading Science forums where eminent scientists battle each other, but in their case in the interests of furthering Mankind (or the gratification of their own egos
).
There are better places to practice one's debating skills, this is a Jazz Guitar forum fer f*ck's sake, not an Egghead's convention!
Or is it?......Last edited by princeplanet; 09-17-2014 at 12:59 AM.
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Eggheads? I thought we were existentialists. Can we be both, or are we both by nature? Originally Posted by princeplanet
I get disappointed when I see these potentially interesting threads descend into personal attacks where individual egos attack and defend something that is pointless, excepting the imaginary verification of one's own intellectual or moral superiority.
And all without a shred of humour.... tsk tsk tsk.
Being careful to cross our "T's" and dot our "I's" , or to point to a poorly made contention several pages back into a thread (or indeed another thread altogether) in order to undermine or ridicule, reminds me of reading Science forums where eminent scientists battle each other, but in the interests of the furthering Mankind (or the gratification of the own egos ).
There are better places to practice one's debating skills, this is a Jazz Guitar forum fer f*ck's sake, not an Egghead's convention!
Or is it?......Last edited by Stevebol; 09-17-2014 at 12:52 AM.
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I am not sure which girl I am most like, but I certainly don't want to be like the girl who posts a thread and then engages with negative people who do not want to discuss the topic.
So, if anyone is more interested in the actual thread topic than my magnificent guitar skills...
What experiments have you done? What did you learn? How controlled were your experiments?
Are there any studies that you have read about learning, or practice, that affected the way you practice? When you tried to apply something from a study, was it effective, or were you disappointed?
Have you applied any ideas from research in other fields to your practice?
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Has anyone got an even better word than "magnificent"?
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Hmmm, let's debate that for a few pages shall we! Originally Posted by Stevebol
I don't mind being a bit of an egghead myself from time to time, and I know that sometimes it can take over....
"When you're up to your neck in alligators, sometimes it's hard to remember why you came to drain the swamp"
I'm gonna call "Egghead Alert!" when a wise ass derails a thread from now on. And I hope someone alerts me when I do the same!
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why, why why why would i be interested in performing these experiments! Originally Posted by jonzo
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