Benson Picking technique on Gibson L5 Wesmo

**Groyniad** · 07-28-2014, 08:27 PM

can i post a quicktime video i've made on my laptop?

it looks like quicktime is not supported

i don't have to start my own youtube page or something do i?

**Philco** · 07-28-2014, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by Groyniad

can i post a quicktime video i've made on my laptop?

it looks like quicktime is not supported

i don't have to start my own youtube page or something do i?

As far as I know you will need to start a YouTube account. Once it's set up it becomes easy to publish with the press of a button.
You can make the video private so only people who press on the link in your post can see it, if that's what you wish.

**MarkRhodes** · 07-28-2014, 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by Philco

Please go to 21.27 and you will see what Groynlad is talking about. The pick is really "hanging out" and flexing like crazy.
This is the way I grip now. It was hard at first but now I can grip quite loosely right on the top right corner and let the pick flex and do the work.]

As for "hanging out" (or "over hang") are we talking about a) the amount of pick exposed above the index finger, b) the amount of pick-tip that shows, or c) both? I interpreted "over hang" (-which may not be synonymous with "hanging out") to mean a, the amount of pick exposed above the index finger.

I still see the motion as generated by the hand holding the pick---the pick doesn't move itself---but if that's what is meant by "letting the pick flex do the work," I have no objection. I wasn't clear what that meant. Now I am. No problem here. Thanks, Philco!

**edh** · 07-28-2014, 10:03 PM

Mark, if the pick doesn't flex, then why wouldn't a stiffer pick not work? I'm loving this thread.

Lots of info here.

edh

**Nabil B** · 07-29-2014, 06:46 AM

Any words on string muting when acsending from one string to a higher one ?

destinytot · 07-29-2014, 07:11 AM

the pick is already touching the string before anything happens - you then push the pick - it flexes - a critical point is reached and it straightens pushing through the string and making it sound

(On reading this sentence, it occurred to me that one 'touches' - rather than 'plays' - the guitar here in Spain.)

I think you've not only identified the most crucial factor, you've also managed to give an elusive idea enormous clarity. Thank you!

I'm very grateful for all the information that's coming out of this discussion, which is helping me to join the dots and complete the puzzle; it's making me think about what matters to me in my playing, recognise what's missing and work out solutions.

I'm probably not alone in thinking that any interest I have in such terms as 'rest stroke', 'sweeping' - or even 'Benson Picking' - extends no further than the point at which these concepts become more than surface knowledge and are synthesised into coherent, flowing, lyrical lines.

I'm putting a video clip of Garrison Fewell into the mix.

Unlike the Dan Wlson video I posted yesterday (#374), this video doesn't demonstrate super-fast chops (although Garrison Fewell's lines do demonstrate judicious use of triad arpeggios). And I would forego the 'reverse sweep' (?) which Garrison Fewell occasionally uses. Having had a couple of lessons with Dan Wilson, i can safely say that what Dan says at 2mins05secs in that clip applies to both directions across the strings ("I just live by the rule that if it's two or more notes on one string, then I'm alternate picking; and then if I'm switching strings... you know (plays)... same direction"), I'll heed Dan's advice instead (which is working fine for me).

Crucially, however, I can now factor in what Groyniad has expressed so well. I'm taking the liberty of quoting in all caps - surely called for, in my book:

THE PICK IS ALREADY TOUCHING THE STRING BEFORE ANYTHING HAPPENS - YOU THEN PUSH THE PICK - IT FLEXES - A CRITICAL POINT IS REACHED AND IT STRAIGHTENS PUSHING THROUGH THE STRING AND MAKING IT SOUND

So here's Garrison Fewell demonstrating and explaining his topic, "Right-hand articulation, concentrating on rest strokes":

**Groyniad** · 07-29-2014, 07:51 AM

i recommend starting with a fender light so the feel of the flex is easier to get into

if the relation between pick stiffness and string tension is wrong you won't feel the flex (at least not as a novice gb picker)

the reason you need a vice-like grip on the pick is so the way the pick flexes is not determined by changes in how its being gripped but in the force with which you push or pull against the string with it - you will learn to control this force for musical effect - it will happen quite quickly once you get going and without having to think about it

the reason you need the index finger pointing back up towards you (along with the tip of the pick) / the hand angled away from the strings - is that this 'releases' the wrist to make the micro movements that should constitute the pick-strokes (corey christensen - gbh - may use big muscles - but the man does not - i go with the man - always go with the man (that was my dear old mother's advice to me and its my advice to you))

i started to feel it just after i examined my now very angled pick flexing against then pushing through the string on the more natural feeling downstroke - then doing a mirror version of exactly the same thing coming back the way on the less natural feeling upstroke

if you had the pick rigidly set at a 90 degree angle it wouldn't flex at all - and the old way of addressing the string with no angle would produce the quickest and easiest flex. when the pick is angled it is a bit stiffer - but NOT SO STIFF THAT IT WON"T GIVE (as the force applied to it reaches the right point) and snap through the string on its lovely groovy musical angle.

the key - i think - is realizing that you have to achieve the same contact-flex-snapthrough process up the way as you do down the way (upstrokes as well as downstrokes)

this i think is what gb has achieved - a way of making wes-like strokes IN BOTH DIRECTIONS so that the upstroke is just as strong as the downstroke (for this you have to play with a flexing pick)

so try it - make the maximum benson pick angle - i.e. 90 degrees. push against the string and experience the refusal of the pick to flex. reduce the angle so its diagonal (i'm deliberately trying to use intuitive non-technical language guys) and at some moment the tip will flex (give). it is by making this moment happen that you will be making a sound come out of your guitar. if you've been a string striker - i can't help thinking that the sound you will make will be obviously better (clearer - louder - better defined - full bottom end sparkling top end) - such that you would never want to go back to the sound you were making when you were playing by string-striking.

i've got a long way to go to nail this - but i know exactly what i've got to do now and what its going to do for me

**Groyniad** · 07-29-2014, 08:03 AM

[QUOTE=destinytot;446662](On reading this sentence, it occurred to me that one 'touches' - rather than 'plays' - the guitar here in Spain.)

I think you've not only identified the most crucial factor, you've also managed to give an elusive idea enormous clarity. Thank you!

that really is fascinating - that you speak of 'touching' the guitar in Spanish

you could say that there are 2 ways to learn this:

1. work on learning how to put your hand/arm etc. in a very distinctive shape - the shape you see benson adopting - so you watch video and study pictures and text and try to get your hand to adopt a certain (really elusive) grip. then you sort of bring this grip to the instrument and - after a while, if you're lucky - the flexing will start to happen and you will hear/feel the benson magic begin

2. work on learning how to do something with the pick - namely - press it against a string it is already touching (at the angle that makes the best sound - diagonal) - make the angled tip flex against the string - feel the pick snap back straight through the string (you can't DO this you have to feel it happen to the pick). now if you make this happen with a medium tempo 8th note phrase - you will see that your hand is pretty much in the grip we've all been going on about (because - pretty much - that is the only way to get the pick to behave in the right way)

**nunocpinto** · 07-29-2014, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by Professor Jones

Any words on string muting when acsending from one string to a higher one ?

try to use left hand muting. Think like a piano player for instance, you press a key and when you release it the sound will stop.

grab a simple motif on two strings for example and do this. Slowly mute the string by lifting the finger right after you played each note.

Progressively try to play the motif faster and see how your hand and body respond to this. Play also arpeggios and everything else you like with this "principle" in mind.

This is not so easy as it seems, because we have ingrained in our brains the exact opposite; which is to always maintain pressure on the string.

**Groyniad** · 07-29-2014, 08:44 AM

too many consecutive posts...

one further point

the reason this totally transforms your sound and the evenness and reliability of your articulation is that it is no longer you trying to make the note by hitting the string with something (and trying to hit it in precisely the way that is appropriate for the phrasing etc.)

it is a pick snapping back to straight under pressure from your push/pull and the string - the pick retains its basic properties over time - so does the string - so does the pushing and pulling you introduce - SO THE SOUND STAYS THE SAME. the flexing of the pick produces the sound now - and it does this with the sort of repeatable precision that you could never achieve through willing it (however hard you train yourself)

that's why George sounds different - why you can hear everything at any tempo

the biggest immediate effect is to even out an inevitable imbalance between downstrokes and upstrokes

all on its own this transforms the sound of your playing

destinytot · 07-29-2014, 09:30 AM

Hi professor jones.

Any words on string muting when ascending from one string to a higher one?

I'm intrigued to know more about string muting with this technique.

As - for the first time in several months - I've got time on my hands and a guitar constantly at hand (a classical, because of the heat and because I find practising on it helps my chops), I've managed to observe what is, basically, a habit.

While, at this point, I find no need to change it, neither do I recommend this habit. I've no reason to call it a 'bad habit'; on the contrary, I believe it serves me well - but I'd stop short of recommending its indiscriminate use.

With that caveat, I think I can describe how I mute when ascending strings... (grabs guitar and pick, checks, and chooses words carefully)...

Firstly, being right-handed, it's all in the left hand.

Moreover, it's about controlling the decay of the note you're leaving (as opposed to the one you're going to). When I observe myself, i experience something along the lines of:

Right Brain: ('Explorer?, leaping to a distinct pitch) "Ooh, nice - that's it! That's the one I want! Let's go for it!"
Left Brain: ('Fretboard Custodian' and 'Janitor', measuring the interval and doing the housekeeping) "Come along, now! Mind how you go! Quietly does it!"

What actually happens is that, as soon as I commit to ascending to a particular note, I reach for it with my fourth finger/pinky - I'm re-evaluating the use of that finger, but the wider ascending interval leaps/reaches seem to be an instance where the fourth finger/pinky is working - and, simultaneously, I let my left hand knuckles 'spread apart and widen', so that my first finger hovers as if for a bar chord, ready to mute if this is required.

As I say, the action - not the mental chatter, or at least not quite as much

- is habit for me now. But I'd like to stress that it's about controlling the decay of the note you're leaving.

I notice that I'm leaving notes in a particular way, i.e. not just lifting each finger vertically. Sometimes, I leave the note but lift the finger only partially. At others I seem to 'roll' the finger to the next note, controlling the release from the one before. The tricky areas seem to be wider ascending interval leaps/reaches (which the first-finger bar motion seems to solve for me), and partial lifting of the finger when this produces unwanted harmonics.

I believe this habit developed out of chord playing, out of refined 'squeezing and releasing' of chords and developing conscious control of note durations while playing bossa nova rhythm over quite a number of years. I still play that style, but I've moved on to others - and I'm delighted to find that what I've learned about dynamics from bossa nova helps and informs new musical choices. I especially like the loud-soft - to the point of 'ghosted' - articulation of horns, particularly trumpet and tenor (but mostly trumpet).

Besides which, I buy completely into the notion that this picking technique is about 'strumming on one string'. High action and extremely heavy strings are no problem with this technique, and slight adjustment of the angle at which the pick strikes the strings allows for degrees of variation and control of volume and dynamics - another reason for practising with a classical (not the same as playing an archtop, which is actually louder).

Anyway, these subjective ruminations of mine are intended as a useful contribution to the thread - no more, no less - and I hope they serve that purpose in at least a small way.

PS Muting with the heel of the right hand seems to be effective when playing 16th notes.
PPS Muting - and playing, generally - on archtop becomes so much easier after using a classical. The pickguard makes it a piece of cake.

**nunocpinto** · 07-29-2014, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by Groyniad

too many consecutive posts...

one further point

the reason this totally transforms your sound and the evenness and reliability of your articulation is that it is no longer you trying to make the note by hitting the string with something (and trying to hit it in precisely the way that is appropriate for the phrasing etc.)

it is a pick snapping back to straight under pressure from your push/pull and the string - the pick retains its basic properties over time - so does the string - so does the pushing and pulling you introduce - SO THE SOUND STAYS THE SAME. the flexing of the pick produces the sound now - and it does this with the sort of repeatable precision that you could never achieve through willing it (however hard you train yourself)

that's why George sounds different - why you can hear everything at any tempo

the biggest immediate effect is to even out an inevitable imbalance between downstrokes and upstrokes

all on its own this transforms the sound of your playing

Groyniad,your explanations on the "flex" and the "snap" are absolutely on the mark.

Just like to add that this allows you to play consecutive notes on adjacent strings (inside picking) with astounding precision as also to change a phrase direction with an effortlessness you only could dream on before; but it allows you also to play alternate picking (outside picking) with the same precision and relaxation.

one last observation is that it's this "flex" and the "snap" that as been misinterpreted as rest strokes on downstrokes, which on a archtop or semi produces a very dull and dead sound and stiffens your phrasing and playing.

**MarkRhodes** · 07-29-2014, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by edh

Mark, if the pick doesn't flex, then why wouldn't a stiffer pick not work? I'm loving this thread.

Lots of info here.

O, I'm not saying the pick doesn't flex. (I'm not one of those anti-pick-flex people! ;o)

But coming from using a .38 nylon pick, a Fender Medium feels pretty stiff. (If you hold a .38 at a steep angle, the pick edge "smears" against the string in a way a Fender Medium does not.)

I was just unclear at first what it meant to say the flex is doing the work. Again, I'm not saying that is wrong. I wasn't clear about what it meant. (As an old philosopher I learned much from used to say, "you have to understand what someone is saying before you can agree or disagree with them.")

**ecj** · 07-29-2014, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by nunocpinto

Groyniad,your explanations on the "flex" and the "snap" are absolutely on the mark.

Just like to add that this allows you to play consecutive notes on adjacent strings (inside picking) with astounding precision as also to change a phrase direction with an effortlessness you only could dream on before; but it allows you also to play alternate picking (outside picking) with the same precision and relaxation.

I've always struggled with inside picking. It's so hard. The best I can do inside picking between open strings is pretty poor compared to my other skills. I've been trying to isolate motions and figure out where my stumbling blocks are. Here's what I've found over the last few weeks:

Everything in 16th notes because my metronome only goes up to 256:

1) I can alt pick on a single string starting from a downstroke at about 160-170
2) I can alt pick on a single string starting from an upstroke at about 140-150 (upstroke on the downbeat) - not sure why this is harder, but I think it was an important discovery for me that it was
3) I can outside pick between two open strings at about 130
4) I can inside pick between two open strings at about 110-115 tops

I can still play up and down my scales alt picking pretty fast, but I'm hoping that isolating some of this stuff will make me improve even more in control.

Do you have any vids of you demoing what you mean by "astounding precision" in terms of doing inside picking? I'd be interested to see how you are handling the motion.

Should note that none of the above includes rest strokes.

**MarkRhodes** · 07-29-2014, 10:46 AM

There are five exercises in Troy Stetina's "Speed Mechanics for Lead Guitar" that might be helpful here. (I know, it's a "shred" book, but these exercises are about the most basic picking mechanics involving two strings. Alternate picking.

All of this is A minor pentatonic. All the examples are on the top two strings (B and E). (You should play them on the others too, of course. The numbers refer to frets. E / 5 is an A, E / 8 is a C note; B /5 is an E and B / 8 is a G note. Those are the only four notes in the exercise.)

1: E / 8 5 B/ 8 5 Play this as eighths to start, then as sixteenths)

2: E/ 5 B / 8 5 8

3) E/ 5 8 5 B/ 8

4 B/ 8 E / 5 B / 8 5

5: B/ 8 E / 5 B/ 8 5

These exercises force you to change strings with a downstroke and with an upstroke, going either higher or lower. This is NOT economy picking or Gypsy picking. It's a really good exercise for alternate picking. You can figure out which one is a problem for you and work on it.

**Groyniad** · 07-29-2014, 11:04 AM

but guys - part of the pay off the GB thing is that you don't have to think about any of this ultra complex picking stuff. just get the feel - get more and more used to it - and you'll find you don't have to worry about picking patterns.

i've found - with my enormous experience of all of 24 hours nearly of doing it rightish - that there's only one moment when i'm prone to get the pick in the wrong place. that's when i put my pick on the string for the first time when sitting down with the guitar. i often miss then. but once the pick is in the strings and either touching or pushing/pulling through a string, there are no (or very few) problems about moving through the strings clearly with different sorts of lines.

**JC Stylles** · 07-29-2014, 11:31 AM

This is a good point in relation to pick flex that has been raised that was brought to my attention & that I was asked to comment on.

One of the things we as players do early in trying to get things together, is try to sound like our idols-that's a pretty natural desire. Along the way we try to emulate their sounds, phrases , techniques etc, to the best of our ability.

99.9% of guys prior to my coaching/tutorial came to me using a heavy or even extra heavy pick, and they could not get their head fully around how to now switch to use a medium grade pick. The stiffness that is associated with heavy picks will really make life hard for a player to get a sense of touch and dynamics. Also, however,the challenge of switching to a medium pick, and controlling something that bends can make it equally tough for the player who does not have a firm grounding on the fundamentals of George's technique.

Let's assume one has studied my Tutorial, and they have a pretty firm understanding of the components coming together and are getting results. The question on pick flex comes into the equation at some point which can only be a personal decision for each and every player as to which path they chose. If you listen to different Era recordings of George, like a Cookbook period to a CTI period to a Warners Brother period for example, while you still hear George's essence, you can also hear variations in sound quality. George is on record that at one point he thought he was getting one of the worst sounds and worked on improving it. SO , if your aim is to sound exactly like George, even that has changed over time, so which period are you trying to emulate? I know for myself early on in the piece, I wanted more of the pick flexing sound- that way you get the sound of the melodic note ,plus the sound of the pick flex too. The problem for me was after a while I sounded TOO MUCH like George.While many would not view this is a bad thing, as one moves higher in profile and records and matures etc, it is not a valuable asset to sound EXACTLY like someone else's sound. So I personally made the decision to not overdo the flexing sound, in that way you can still hear the influence, but not a carbon copy.

If your aim IS to get the flex of the pick more involved in your technique, then the following should be noted:

1/ You need to hold your thumb as high up toward the top 1/2 section of the pick as possible, however,
2/ In order to do that, you will need to have developed a super duper strong 1st DI muscle- there can lie the challenge.

It is not about holding the pick loosely, it is about holding the pick high enough and having enough pick protruding that allows the pick to flex, which will give you that sound and even more of that flex feeling, if that is what you are looking for. While holding it loosely might give you a similar sound and feel on first adaption, you will soon be exposed as soon as someone calls something way up there in tempo-so be warned. Your alternative is to contnue to work on your 1st DI muscle, as the stronger that becomes, the higher you can hold the pick firmly and allow the flex of the pick to do it's thing whilst you are STILL in control of the action.

Along my journey , after many years of playing, I decided NOT to hold the pick as high as George, and go for more of just the sound and tonal quality of the note coming out from the string without too much flex sound. I also advised within my Tutorial that if you want more of the "George" sound-which is a very personal decision that only you the player can make-then hold the pick higher, but you WILL need to develop your 1st DI muscle to it's maximum point.

If you see some of the slow-mo pictures on George's right hand in his Video shot at his NJ home with the pick flexing, you will see how high your thumb needs to be up the pick. This is not easy to achieve for us mere mortals, but that is what you would be aiming for.

Finally understand this. All of us have slightly different muscle and bone structure and hand size, however, the principles of George's technique can be applied regardless to vastly improve your playing and sound on multiple levels.As I constantly say, it then comes down to paying attention to the very fine details, as to which way you ultimately want to sound. More pick flex-less pick flex? That's a personal decision one has to make based upon what they are hearing and aiming for. I started the journey looking to emulate as much as possible and had more pick flex but sounded "Too George-Like" and had to modify it from an artistic and integrity point of view.

Playing and experiencing both options will at least give you choices, and along the way you will develop a killer right hand regardless, and then you will be in the great position of being able to ultimately choose what will work best for you, with all things considered.

Cheers,

JC Stylles

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**MarkRhodes** · 07-29-2014, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by JC Stylles

More pick flex-less pick flex? That's a personal decision one has to make based upon what they are hearing and aiming for. I started the journey looking to emulate as much as possible and had more pick flex but sounded "Too George-Like" and had to modify it from an artistic and integrity point of view.

Playing and experiencing both options will at least give you choices, and along the way you will develop a killer right hand regardless, and then you will be in the great position of being able to ultimately choose what will work best for you, with all things considered.

Cheers,

JC Stylles

Thanks, JC. That's well said.

**Groyniad** · 07-29-2014, 01:23 PM

''More pick flex-less pick flex? That's a personal decision one has to make based upon what they are hearing and aiming for.'' JC Stylles

What a fantastic post JC!

I first discovered the pick flex feeling whilst holding onto most of the pick (with only the tip going past the end of my index finger). its a subtler phenomenon when you hold the pick this way (because you're stopping its flex movement half way down the body of the pick) - but you can feel it better because your ULTRA ULTRA sensitive index-finger-tip is right there allowing you to sort of feel the flex.

i just wanted to stress for everyone that you're saying its a matter of more or less flex - depending on the sound and feel you want - not a matter of flex or not-flex. even when you're holding onto most of the pick THAT TIP FLEXES - i can feel that as clear as day (its gorgeous actually - but i don't want to sound to much of a freak) - it flexes and makes the sound for you. its got less definition and more warmth (and its still way more defined than with a string-striking method). the other thing that varies the amount of flex you get is pick angle - if you come right up from below and make the angle 90 degrees you won't get pick flex - and you can't play (meaningfully).

so if you're using the type of pick i used for twenty five years until yesterday - one that precisely will not flex - you ain't going to get the gb picking thing happening

at the moment i'm so blown away by the sheer superiority of tone and articulation that is involved no matter where you hold the pick that i'm not worried about sounding too much like this or that. its obvious that i'm finally getting the sound out of the guitar that is in there.

i should say i recently got mr stylles help through his website and its been totally invaluable to me.

**AlainJazz** · 07-29-2014, 02:23 PM

Question to you guys. I've been using what I thought were regular fender medium picks. I ordered some new ones and I guess I wasn't paying attention because when I go them, I noticed they're much smaller than the type I've been using. These new ones are fender medium type 451. Are these the ones you guys are using or are you using the larger ones (sorry I don't know what the type number is since I thought they were all the same)? The 451s feel more comfortable to me.