Melodic and Harmonic minor scales. What Shapes?

bobsguitars09 · #1 05-26-2010, 08:52 PM

I am going to learn the Melodic and Harmonic minor scales and all the
modes. Can you recommend what "shapes" I should learn "first"?

I say first because I want to get some set shapes down first
before going beyond that.

Thanks!

bako · #2 05-26-2010, 09:41 PM

Take whatever fingerings that you already know for major scale derived sounds and alter the notes as needed.

bobsguitars09 · #3 05-26-2010, 10:58 PM

I was hoping for this answer!!

makes perfect sense too.

bobsguitars09 · #4 05-26-2010, 10:59 PM

anyone applied the Jimmy Bruno 5 shapes to the melodic and harmonic minor?

voelker · #5 05-27-2010, 03:52 AM

How long have you been playing? It's awesome that your asking so many questions. You can tell you're really hungry for knowledge. but there's a reason jimmy only has 5 shapes. That's all you need to create any shape. If you know the scale degrees of all the notes in those 5 shapes and the intervals that build a major scale, then its time to make your own shapes; like bako said.

Memorize the structure of the scale you want to play.
Melodic jazz minor = 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Harmonic minor = 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, 7.

If you need visual copies write them out on fretboard diagrams. This approach gives you a much better knowledge of the fretboard. It's not really the shape that's important any way. It's understanding how it got that way. It's like reading the first and last chapter of a book. Here are the main characters....here's where they end up. How'd they get there? How did they avoid a dissonant outcome?

Dookychase · #6 05-27-2010, 07:16 AM

If I remember correctly, Emily Remler uses 2 basic shapes.

For example, D melodic minor starting at the 5th fret, 5th string.
She starts at the 5 fret and plays the scale starting with the little finger, playing the scale towards the headstock.

Then she plays it starting with the index finger and goes the other direction.

She does the same thing for D melodic minor starting at the 6th string, 10th fret.

Makes any sense?

BigDaddyLoveHandles · #7 05-27-2010, 08:13 AM

Note that there's nothing mystical about "5". Some methodologies have more, some less.

FatJeff · #8 05-27-2010, 09:11 AM

Yes, I've altered the Jimmy Bruno 5 Shapes for melodic minor. But the introduction of the b3 fundamentally changes the way the scale lies under your fingers. So, the resemblance to the 5 Shapes that Jimmy espouses (which are based on the major scale) is not all that strong...the fingerings change. I did find it helpful to derive the melodic minor shapes by myself, based on the Bruno shapes. However, I don't think of the melodic minor shapes I use in relation to the major shapes as taught by Jimmy. I think of them as two separate entities, for better or for worse.

There is another fundamental difference between the Bruno shapes and the melodic minor shapes...the Bruno shapes all relate back to a major tonality, and the melodic minor shapes I'm using all relate to a minor tonality. Remember that when dealing with minor tonalities, Jimmy teaches you to think of the related major. So if you're playing A natural minor, you're really in the key of C as far as Jimmy's shapes are concerned. I suppose you could try to relate the melodic minor shapes to Shape 6 (natural minor), but now you have two different notes (6 & 7) instead of 1 (3). I suspect that would introduce its own difficulties.

Interestingly, the MM shapes I came up with are exactly the same as the ones Don Mock uses in his book on MM. So I guess I'm doing something right. Or, at least something that Don Mock does - which is good enough for me right now.

BDLH is right, there's more than one way to skin a cat. JB's 5 Shapes and CAGED both have 5 shapes to learn. I'm not familiar with other systems, but 5 is a manageable number for me, so that's what I work with. Seems to cover the fretboard pretty well.

randalljazz · #9 05-27-2010, 04:00 PM

'cuz there are five different pitches of open strings, so any great number of fingering patterns for anything would be extensions or duplications...

Claudi · #10 05-27-2010, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobsguitars09

I am going to learn the Melodic and Harmonic minor scales and all the
modes. Can you recommend what "shapes" I should learn "first"?

I say first because I want to get some set shapes down first
before going beyond that.

Thanks!

I learnt the 5 shapes of all the scales from Dave Celentano's book 17 years ago. I suppose you're only talking about shapes on the fretboard, right?
Bako's right when he says "Take whatever fingerings that you already know for major scale derived sounds and alter the notes as needed".
I took the shapes Dave shows in his book from the pentatonic scale as the "skeleton" for the major scale and after "turned" them into the harmonic and melodic minor scales, always using the pentatonic as the "skeleton" for them. If you mix both scales (melodic and harmonic minors) you'll get the harmonic major scale. It was a surprise for me! You can also take the harmonic minor and convert it into, what I call the harmonic minor pentatonic. It's like the pentatonic but with the harmonic minor "skeleton" and also, what I call, the harmonic minor blues scale, it has a 4 notes chromatism. Try them, maybe you'll like them!

derek · #11 05-28-2010, 10:16 AM

Clearly there are many ways to skin a MM scale. However, I am a big fan of just altering what you already know. By far, the biggest hurdle in playing jazz is the muscle memory required to play these various devices we use for improvising.

If I can just alter something I have already spent countless hours on to produce the new pitch collection, I think that is working smarter, rather than harder. That is of course, unless the afore mentioned alterations create an unwieldy shape. YMMV

BigDaddyLoveHandles · #12 05-28-2010, 10:37 AM

Has this been said? It's not enough to "know a shape"; you have to know the function of the notes in a shape. For example, here's a G major scale:

||---|---|-X-|---|-X-|---|-X-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-X-|---|-X-|---|-X-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-X-|-X-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-X-|-X-|---|-X-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-X-|---|-X-|---|-X-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-X-|---|-X-|---|-X-|---|---|---|---|

You need know what each note is:

||---|---|-R-|---|-2-|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-5-|---|-6-|---|-7-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-3-|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-7-|-R-|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-4-|---|-5-|---|-6-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-R-|---|-2-|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|

Then it's easy to go to a jazz minor: flatten the 3rd:

||---|---|-R-|---|-2-|-m3|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-5-|---|-6-|---|-7-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-m3|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-7-|-R-|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-4-|---|-5-|---|-6-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-R-|---|-2-|-m3|---|---|---|---|---|

Another approach is via the relative major. Take that same G major shape and thing of it as E natural minor:

||---|---|-3-|---|-4-|---|-5-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-7-|---|-R-|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-5-|-6-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-2-|-3-|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-6-|---|-7-|---|-R-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-3-|---|-4-|---|-5-|---|---|---|---|

Now raise the 6 & 7 to get E jazz minor:

||---|---|-3-|---|-4-|---|-5-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-M7|-R-|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-5-|---|-M6|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-2-|-3-|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-M6|---|-M7|-R-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-3-|---|-4-|---|-5-|---|---|---|---|

Claudi · #13 05-28-2010, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

Has this been said? It's not enough to "know a shape"; you have to know the function of the notes in a shape.

That's the point of course...and also to know the note names. That's something I studied for a long time otherwise I'd be sauntering all along the fretboard.
My post was to help bobsguitars09 the way he asked: "Can you recommend what "shapes" I should learn first?",...because I don't know if he can find all notes and the intervals on the fretboard.
The rest comes later if he wants to learn the shapes first.
I don't write much here but I enjoy many threads you all write.

FatJeff · #14 05-28-2010, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by derek

Clearly there are many ways to skin a MM scale. However, I am a big fan of just altering what you already know. By far, the biggest hurdle in playing jazz is the muscle memory required to play these various devices we use for improvising.

If I can just alter something I have already spent countless hours on to produce the new pitch collection, I think that is working smarter, rather than harder. That is of course, unless the afore mentioned alterations create an unwieldy shape. YMMV

That was kind of the point of some of my earlier musings - for me, at least, altering the major scale by flatting the third actually introduces enough difference in the way it lays out on the fingerboard that I feel more comfortable just thinking of it as an entire separate entity.

shoome · #15 05-31-2010, 06:40 AM

i memorize those shapes based on the major scales like some/most people here do ... here is a little chart that i made for myself. (red dots-root, blue dots-b3 from mm). (If the pic is too big, pls tell me and ill just link it...)

I tried to memorize separate mm-shapes but i just wasnt able to get it done as smoothly as with this approach. It just comes down to the way you like to think of the mm-scale :-)

merseybeat · #16 05-31-2010, 08:47 AM

Oohh All those Augmented arpeggios!

I need a shower!

Eddie

bass2man · #17 06-01-2010, 06:10 PM

Thanks for sharing the diagrams Shoome..I was just starting to diagram out the MM scale based on the 5 forms of the CAGED major scale patterns i.e. Jimmy Brunos method...pretty easy to remember as the note patterns on each string, i.e. whole-whole, half-whole, whole-half, etc. repeat themselves just like in the major scales...the only difference is that I add the G and A on the 6th string and the B on the 5th string in form 5, the first diagram in your MM chart...key of C.

Thanks again.

shoome · #18 06-02-2010, 04:32 AM

no prob bass2man

and yes, those 3 notes and maybe even the low F (in the Key of C) should definitely be added!

quintuplet · #19 06-06-2010, 06:26 AM

To me what works best is playing 3 notes per string, always, that helps my picking and it's easy to run through the whole fretboard and easier to memorize.

Dave Woods · #20 06-06-2010, 09:09 AM

I'm New Here, just joined, have been a member of the Yahoo Jazz Guitar site for years. I feel OK about pushing my website because it's free to anyone who's trying to learn. I enjoy and need feedback from those who stop over because it helps me to develop and focus the content of the site.

I'd also like to add that I can see that there's a lot of knowledgeable players on this forum, and my approach is not meant to "trump" anybody Else's.

Dave Woods Jazz Guitar Starting Right

jimmyb · #21 06-07-2010, 06:35 AM

There is no need for the melodic minor shapes. The shapes cover all scales. The important thing about scales is that they analyze a sound. If you use the outside note B nat through a Cm7 chord you have the melodic minor sound. You learn a scale to produce a sound. Or I think the sound gets used and then theory makes a scale from it. Goes way back to pre classical period.

It's almost like "What came 1st? The chicken or the egg.

Baltar Hornbeek · #22 06-07-2010, 09:34 AM

Hey are you Jimmy Bruno?

jimmyb · #23 06-07-2010, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baltar Hornbeek

Hey are you Jimmy Bruno?

YES

jimmyb · #24 06-07-2010, 10:30 AM

FatJeff · #25 06-07-2010, 10:50 AM

Very cool, good to have Jimmy in the forums with us!

wizard3739 · #26 06-07-2010, 11:45 AM

Welcome aboard Jimmy!

wiz

bobsguitars09 · #27 06-08-2010, 12:58 PM

This is GREAT!! thanks for posting Jimmy.

How would I apply this method (everyone) to the seven modes of the melodic
and seven modes of the harmonic minor scales as far as the harmonized
scales for these go with all the chords?

what I mean is.. if there are 7 modes for each scale and I want to learn all the chords and so on for each mode
how would I apply 5 shapes to this if there are 7 modes? how do I begin to approach playing through the 1 and 4's?

jimmyb · #28 06-08-2010, 03:08 PM

Bob, I think you are slightly confused. All 7 modes have the same 7 notes which is the collections of tones in the tonal center

Christien · #29 06-08-2010, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shoome

i memorize those shapes based on the major scales like some/most people here do ... here is a little chart that i made for myself. (red dots-root, blue dots-b3 from mm). (If the pic is too big, pls tell me and ill just link it...)

I tried to memorize separate mm-shapes but i just wasnt able to get it done as smoothly as with this approach. It just comes down to the way you like to think of the mm-scale :-)

Can anyone clarify this for me? I was auditioning for my schools jazz band yesterday and they told me to play a G melodic minor so I played one of the shapes that was posted above and they said something like that you have to ascend major and descend minor and I had no idea what they were talking about

billkath · #30 06-08-2010, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christien

Can anyone clarify this for me? I was auditioning for my schools jazz band yesterday and they told me to play a G melodic minor so I played one of the shapes that was posted above and they said something like that you have to ascend major and descend minor and I had no idea what they were talking about

Nearly- the Melodic minor is a natural minor scale with raised 6th and 7th ascending and a natural minor when descending . But in the "Jazz" melodic minor, it's the same up as down.