Melodic and Harmonic minor scales. What Shapes?

[merseybeat]

The 5 shapes are based off the major scale, which contains 7 of the possible 12 notes in the chromatic scale. Therefore there are 5 notes that are "outside". Jimmy's system addresses each of the "outside" notes individually as "colors". Once you internalize these sounds, you are free to pick any/all of them to create your sonic masterpiece.

For the melodic minor scale, which differs from the major scale in only one note (the 3rd), you have a choice. Either learn the scale as a simple alteration of the major scale by flatting the 3rds of the shapes you already know; or, learn the MM scale as its own deal.

Yes, yes ,yes! It really is that simple! There is really no need to make it more complex (Unless you want to impress your girlfriend!).

Eddie

[shoome]

Originally Posted by FatJeff

Shoome, you are exactly where I was before I entered music school. I enrolled in JB's online school about 6 months before I auditioned for school. I think it helped out a lot, and I credit it for a large part of why I was admitted. You can worry about modes, & harmonic and melodic minor scales once you are actually in school. For now, I would focus on being able to make the changes and creating good melodic lines.

You're right I think... In germany you will be faced with a colloquium at your auditions and I'm always afraid that they ask some sort of "why did you play *** over ***?" and I am not able to answer if I dont know e.g. which melodic minor mode I used for an altered dom.
But I think you're right.. If you impress them with melodic lines and play through the changes not sounding like "I have to play 'this scale' over 'that chord' or I'll fail" you've got better chances for passing the audition.

Maybe I should check JB's school out... it's 7months before my auditions at the moment

Originally Posted by merseybeat

Yes, yes ,yes! It really is that simple! There is really no need to make it more complex (Unless you want to impress your girlfriend!).

True, but sadly my girlfriend is a classical musician and therefore I have to watch out even talking about "melodic minor"

[merseybeat]

Too funny

The question

I'm always afraid that they ask some sort of "why did you play *** over ***?" and I am not able to answer?

My answer would be "Cause I like the sound of it!". This normally raises a smile and a nod of approval from my peers!

Eddie

[shoome]

Originally Posted by merseybeat

My answer would be "Cause I like the sound of it!". This normally raises a smile and a nod of approval from my peers!

Nice idea I think I'm just too nervous, as I really wish to get to study

I just picked up some information about JB's school. I think I should give it a try... seems to be an alternative but pretty solid approach...

[merseybeat]

I'm a member of JB's school and I have to say its great! Also have the DVD "No Nonsense Jazz", together they have really relaxed me because its all about playing! Its funny because I had that question posed to me a few weeks ago. I was playing an embellished Em7 arp going to an Embellished B Aug arp and back to Em7 arp all over a C Maj7 and I was asked by a trumpet player "What the hell are you doing? That sounds so cool"! I answered "Dunno? just sounds cool!" And we laughed! In all reality I could have bored him for an hour about how I was borrowing from the V's altered tones, but that would have taken up valuable drinking time!

Eddie

[shoome]

Originally Posted by merseybeat

but that would have taken up valuable drinking time!

yay... sometimes I forget what jazz really is about joking aside I like geeking around in theory with my clarinetist but sometimes just playing and having fun listening to the other one's playing and hearing how cool something can sound without actually knowing "what's behind" is great

I think I'll subscribe to Jimmy B. once I get home from work...

[billkath]

Originally Posted by shoome

yay... sometimes I forget what jazz really is about

So-that's the difference between Rock n' Roll guitar and jazz guitar? R+R is to get the ladies, and jazz a few pints? Have a lovely time at the pub, boys-I'm off to practice Johnny B. Goode.!!!

[shoome]

Originally Posted by billkath

So-that's the difference between Rock n' Roll guitar and jazz guitar? R+R is to get the ladies, and jazz a few pints? Have a lovely time at the pub, boys-I'm off to practice Johnny B. Goode.!!!

c'mon! how many 'chicks have u pulled off' with playing mixo#11 over tritone subs? Or you doing something like "hey gal, I like playing inside, outside, inside, outside..."!?

ok... not the funniest one... I'm too tired...

[merseybeat]

Too funny! Why not play "jump jive" then you get the ladies and the beer! Actually being serious you DO need the theory, but this has to be delivered from a good teacher as it really needs to delivered with a solid structure! But don't make my mistake and think theory was everything! Its not! Remember History suggests that theory is written to try and explain the actual occurrence of something! Django played and everyone but Django wrote books about it

Eddie

[shoome]

what do I need the ladies for if I can have an additional beer?

I actually have a (in my opinion) very good teacher, who is relatively well known in germany. I go there every 2-3 weeks for 4-6h each lesson. So far this helped me so much... I know theory isn't everything... but I like the approach of "mastering the instrument before going out there and forget all theory while playing" (as far as this is possible for a 'normal' being

[merseybeat]

but I like the approach of "mastering the instrument before going out there and forget all theory while playing"

Good Luck mate!

[shoome]

thats the part where I said "as far as it's possible for s.o. like me" to be serious... my teacher always tells me to "go to some sessions!" and I think to myself after hearing any recording of me playing "nope... u can't go out there at this kind of playing-'level'" ... I sometimes go to sessions (only seeing/hearing, never plaied at one so far) and see people at my age going up on that stage and playing that damn good that I think "... ok! practice-time!"

[ubiguitar]

Originally Posted by bobsguitars09

I am going to learn the Melodic and Harmonic minor scales and all the
modes. Can you recommend what "shapes" I should learn "first"?

I say first because I want to get some set shapes down first
before going beyond that.

Thanks!

Try this book: Modal Scales for Guitar.
here you'll find all fingerings you may need.

[Reg]

It's not rocket science... each scale has 7 notes. Learn all seven modes or what ever you want to call each scale built starting from each scale degree. Melodic and Harmonic minors are different scales with different characteristic notes and functions. After you get all the modes from each degree of each scale(melodic and Harmonic) learn all the arpeggios built in same manor, you'll see and hear chords built from each degree... Like I said this is not difficult, you can download them or much better, write them out yourself. It's almost impossible to play jazz with out them... actually it is impossible... I used to look at melodic and harmonic material from three minors...Natural, Melodic and Harmonic, was much easier to visualize... eventually you simple hear... best Reg... If would help I can download a pdf with info...

[lkmuller]

I think amazing things happen when wll 5 shapes start to blend together in your mind and you can move between shapes effortlessly. Kinda like in the movie Avatar, where all the trees in the forest are interconnected to form a giant network, the 5 shapes are all part of one big network, and when you can see the entire network, that's when your right brain is beginning to be unleashed.

[Claudi]

Originally Posted by Reg

Like I said this is not difficult, you can download them or much better, write them out yourself.

That's what I did: write all of them out and sent it to Matt Warnock. I highly recomend it.

[Claudi]

Originally Posted by lkmuller

the 5 shapes are all part of one big network, and when you can see the entire network, that's when your right brain is beginning to be unleashed.

Remember that you can work out more shapes. There are 7 notes, so you should have 7 shapes. you can also work out shapes of 3 notes per string and also 4 notes per string. This will give a better mastery of the fretboard.

[FatJeff]

Originally Posted by Claudi

Remember that you can work out more shapes. There are 7 notes, so you should have 7 shapes. you can also work out shapes of 3 notes per string and also 4 notes per string. This will give a better mastery of the fretboard.

I don't see a reason for any beyond 5...just complicates things for me. The other two are included in JB's shapes (or CAGED, take your pick), because the 4th is right next to (a half step away from) the 3rd, and the tonic is right next to (a half step away from) the 7th. Thus no shape 1 and no shape 4.

Of course, everyone has their own way of doing it, but to me, JB's 5 shapes cover the fretboard completely.

[Claudi]

I only said it will give you a better mastery of the fretboard, but if 5 shapes are enough for you to me it's ok.

[randalljazz]

Originally Posted by Claudi

Remember that you can work out more shapes. There are 7 notes, so you should have 7 shapes. you can also work out shapes of 3 notes per string and also 4 notes per string. This will give a better mastery of the fretboard.

no, there are only five different pitches of open string. that is the governing principle.

[Claudi]

Alright.

[jimmyb]

you guys have lost me and made it much more complicated.

jb

[FatJeff]

Originally Posted by randalljazz

no, there are only five different pitches of open string. that is the governing principle.

I'm struggling to understand this...can you explain in a bit more detail?

[randalljazz]

Originally Posted by FatJeff

I'm struggling to understand this...can you explain in a bit more detail?

i don't know if i can or not! but i'll give it a shot. first, a 'position' means that the hand stays in one place, and there is one (left hand) finger per fret--occasionally this principle is 'bent' by an extension or temporary shift.

A. 7th position, C major, with C on the 6th string (call it 'F' type). play two octaves, no stretch or shift required. notice that tonic is under the same finger on the first string--which is the same "pitch class" (same note name, different octave) played open as is the sixth string. one may conclude (correctly) that any type of (scale or other) pattern anchored by a note on the sixth string will be the same as that note on the first string.

B. 5th position, C on the sixth string, will yield similar result, but requires an extension or temporary shift. (you could call this 'G' type.)

C. 1st position, C on the fifth string, gives from the 3th degree of the scale below tonic to the 5th two octaves and a mi3rd higher, without shift or extension. ('C' type.)

D. 2nd position, C on the fifth string, gives from the 5th below tonic to the 6th above (+ octave), but requires a shift. ( 'Bb' type, no shift required for first position.)

E. 9th position, C on the 4th string, gives from the 2nd below to the 4th above (+ octave), but requires two shifts.

and that's all there is. with 4th string C, tonic under the fourth finger, same as pattern A. C on 3rd string: notes toward the nut = pattern D, notes toward the bridge = pattern B. C on the 2nd string: tenth position, notes toward the nut = pattern E, notes toward the bridge = pattern C. C on the first string: notes toward the nut = pattern B, notes toward the bridge = pattern A.

of course, you can space notes on one string, to the extent of your reach and shift capability, but this yields hybrid positions of the above, or, taken to the extreme, transcend/ignores the concept of position entirely...nothing wrong with that!

[Claudi]

Hey, randalljazz. I think we're not refering to the same thing.
Could you make the effort of showing this in a tablature? It's not that I like tablatures but when it comes to see things on the fretboard it's the only way...or maybe scale graphics. The point is that I don't understand that when playing and starting on the 6th string you can pass from a 7th position, to a 5th, and to a 1st, back to a 2nd and to a 9th. I don't see the relation between any of the positions. That's why I think we're not talking about the same thing.

Thank you!

[randalljazz]

Originally Posted by Claudi

Hey, randalljazz. I think we're not refering to the same thing.
Could you make the effort of showing this in a tablature? It's not that I like tablatures but when it comes to see things on the fretboard it's the only way...or maybe scale graphics. The point is that I don't understand that when playing and starting on the 6th string you can pass from a 7th position, to a 5th, and to a 1st, back to a 2nd and to a 9th. I don't see the relation between any of the positions. That's why I think we're not talking about the same thing.

Thank you!

the relation is that these are the FIVE POSSIBLE POSITIONS for the C major scale. take your guitar and work it through line by line, and you will understand (or don't )...

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

With these systems like CAGED, isn't there often at least two ways to play a position: open or closed? For example, Here is a G major scale, closed:

||---|-1-|-2-|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-2-|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-1-|---|-3-|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-1-|---|-3-|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-1-|-2-|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-2-|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|---|

And open (often skipping a fret between index and middle finger) in the same "position":

||---|---|-1-|---|-2-|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-1-|---|-2-|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-1-|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-1-|-2-|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-1-|---|-2-|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-1-|---|-2-|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|

or even:

||---|---|---|---|-1-|---|-3-|-4-|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-1-|---|-3-|-4-|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-1-|-2-|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|-1-|-2-|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-1-|---|-2-|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-1-|---|-2-|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|

I guess there's always more than one way to do something.

[Claudi]

Ah! Ok, I understood you BigDaddy. That's what I do.
Randalljazz, the kind of shapes I was refering to are the ones that BigDaddy uses.

[Claudi]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

I guess there's always more than one way to do something.

There's more than meets the eye, right?

[randalljazz]

F major scale

||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-1-|-2-|---|-3-|---|-4-|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-1-|-2-|---|-3-|---|-4-|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|-1-|---|-2-|-3-|---|-4-|
||---|---|---|---|-1-|---|-2-|-3-|---|-4-|---|
||---|---|-1-|---|-2-|---|-3-|-4-|---|---|---|
||-1-|---|-2-|---|-3-|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|