Melodic and Harmonic minor scales. What Shapes?

[FatJeff]

Originally Posted by Christien

Can anyone clarify this for me? I was auditioning for my schools jazz band yesterday and they told me to play a G melodic minor so I played one of the shapes that was posted above and they said something like that you have to ascend major and descend minor and I had no idea what they were talking about

Was this an audition for classical or jazz? I'd be surprised if they said that during a jazz audition.

[Claudi]

Originally Posted by bobsguitars09

how would I apply 5 shapes to this if there are 7 modes? how do I begin to approach playing through the 1 and 4's?

The five shapes let you start playing the scales. Make more shapes! One for each note of the scale. Even try to play 3 or 4 notes per string. Learn them all well and while doing so try to see which interval each note is. Don't look at the notes as simple points on the fretboard.

[Claudi]

Originally Posted by Christien

Can anyone clarify this for me? I was auditioning for my schools jazz band yesterday and they told me to play a G melodic minor so I played one of the shapes that was posted above and they said something like that you have to ascend major and descend minor and I had no idea what they were talking about

Are you sure they told you this? I always heard that the melodic minor scale is a compounded scale; you ascend melodic minor and descend aeolian (natural). Both are minor.

[shoome]

Hey Christien, what Claudi ("Ali Claudi"?) said is correct. In a classical context, melodic minor is ascending and descending differently. i.e. take the a-melodic minor:

ascending: A B C D E F# G# A
descending: A G F E D C B A

The difference to "jazz-melodic-minor" is, that you do not descend "aeolian". In Jazz its ascending AND descending the same. So in Jazz you would only play A B C D E F# G# A regardless in which direction you go...


And if you want to learn melodic minor using my chart, make sure that you do not get stucked into those shapes. Do as Claudi said... make your own shapes, make shapes of 3-4 notes all over the neck and I would personally add to that approach to take 2 or 3 2-octave shapes and combine them like John Stowell is recommending. (Just tell me if you would like to get further information on this)...

[merseybeat]

Forget the decending MM scale! This is not the Jazz minor!

In all hindsite, scales are not rocket science! Take a major scale idea and flatten the 3rd, (Chances are you already do this in a 12 bar blues! I-IV) Presto MM.
Next flatten the 6th and you have a HM. Then take these ideas and apply them to all your favourite Major scale positions! This site is full of potential uses for these scales! Experiment! Take it easy and enjoy!

Eddie

[shoome]

Originally Posted by merseybeat

In all hindsite, scales are not rocket science! Take a major scale idea and flatten the 3rd

+1 Thats what I did with the major shapes to get the mm-shapes and with that having it very easy to carry over major ideas to mm-ideas. I can't recommend this approach enough, if any1 has trouble with getting ideas out of the mm-scale!

[merseybeat]

Thanks mate! Also and I cant stress this enough "Practice within a single octave range (And I don't mean root to root!)". Trying to play over two octaves you wont learn anything! If you keep the group of notes within a nice comfortable range you will be far more melodic in the long run! This goes for Arpeggios as well!

Eddie

[Claudi]

Originally Posted by shoome

Hey Christien, what Claudi ("Ali Claudi"?) said is correct.

?????????
It's the first time somebody calls me Ali!!! Claudi is my first name. Like Claudio or Claude, but mine is Claudi, even in my I.D. It depends on where you come from.

[Claudi]

Originally Posted by merseybeat

Forget the decending MM scale! This is not the Jazz minor!

In all hindsite, scales are not rocket science! Take a major scale idea and flatten the 3rd, (Chances are you already do this in a 12 bar blues! I-IV) Presto MM.
Next flatten the 6th and you have a HM. Then take these ideas and apply them to all your favourite Major scale positions! This site is full of potential uses for these scales! Experiment! Take it easy and enjoy!

Eddie

Yes, you are right. But when playing these scales at high speed you have to know the notes you have to alter, so you have to learn them very well in every shape to play the correct notes. For instance, when playing MM and HM I think of a major scale, but when playing the Major Harmonic scale I have to think of the altered MM and HM notes.

[Claudi]

Originally Posted by shoome

The difference to "jazz-melodic-minor" is, that you do not descend "aeolian". In Jazz its ascending AND descending the same. So in Jazz you would only play A B C D E F# G# A regardless in which direction you go...

Ok, but in his school band Christien was told to play some other way instead of keeping the MM scale. He says he was told to ascend major and descend minor, which I think it's wrong and he doesn't remember well what they told him. We're not yet answering the question.
Shoome, if you say that in jazz the MM scale is played ascending and descending the same way why did the guys at Christien's school band told him to vary the scale?

[merseybeat]

Originally Posted by Claudi

Yes, you are right. But when playing these scales at high speed you have to know the notes you have to alter, so you have to learn them very well in every shape to play the correct notes. For instance, when playing MM and HM I think of a major scale, but when playing the Major Harmonic scale I have to think of the altered MM and HM notes.

To quote George Benson "Don't look at the fretboard, develop your ears, you will get much more melody this way, If I look at the neck it all becomes a bit mechanical !"

Best advice I ever heard!

Eddie

[shoome]

Sorry Claudi, we have a pretty known archtop player in germany called Ali Claudi, just a thought

Originally Posted by Claudi

He says he was told to ascend major and descend minor, which I think it's wrong and he doesn't remember well what they told him. [...] why did the guys at Christien's school band told him to vary the scale?

I think there are 2 possibilities... both mentioned in your post already first one, he doesn't remember well what they said. (They could have said "ascend major/ionian with a b3 and descend minor/aeolian" ... '?)
2nd possibility is that the one telling Christien this was simply wrong. Yes, in a classical context the definition of melodic minor describes a varying scale ascending from descending (even though they also don't stand to that rule everytime...) but thats not the case for the "jazz-melodic-minor" ... I dont know if you can call that "by definition"

[jonasfixe]

Originally Posted by Christien

Can anyone clarify this for me? I was auditioning for my schools jazz band yesterday and they told me to play a G melodic minor so I played one of the shapes that was posted above and they said something like that you have to ascend major and descend minor and I had no idea what they were talking about

In classical theory:

C D Eb F G A B C Bb Ab G F Eb D C

I think the reason for old folks like Bach use this is that when you go up to C you are usually heading the tonic, so you use the B (third of dominant G7); When you go down you are probably going to a subdominant or other funcion that uses Bb or Ab: like Fm (4th ) or Dm7b5 (2nd).

[merseybeat]

Can anyone clarify this for me? I was auditioning for my schools jazz band yesterday and they told me to play a G melodic minor so I played one of the shapes that was posted above and they said something like that you have to ascend major and descend minor and I had no idea what they were talking about

Although this may be correct but somewhat awful explanation??? I would have taken my guitar and broke it over the bandleaders head! (Obviously one of the teachers who gets beaten by his wife every-night - Hmm Roger Waters lyric there somewhere).

What he should mean is ascending natural minor scale with the raised 7th (Major7) and descend with the natural b7th.

Again this is NOT the jazz usage!

When I did the Berklee course they stressed the term JAZZ MINOR to eliminate this confusion i.e. ascend and descend with the Major 7th.

Unfortunately there are too many pricks on this planet over complicating things! Why! I have learnt more from this site due to the great simplified nature that most cats explain thing here!

Reading between the lines of ascending major and descending minor (3rd, b3rd) This again is a common trick and sounds cool but in all reality its a Major to "Min Maj" switch. Say C Major scale to C Jazz minor scale and does not even remotely fit the "Classical Example" of melodic minor!

Eddie

[shoome]

Originally Posted by merseybeat

Although this may be correct but somewhat awful explanation??? I would have taken my guitar and broke it over the bandleaders head!

That's what he really should have done and after that looking for a jazzband with a leader knowing what he's talking about

Originally Posted by merseybeat

What he should mean is ascending natural minor scale with the raised 7th (Major7) and descend with the natural b7th.

I may be mistaken, but since melodic minor is a harmonic minor (1 2 ♭3 4 5 ♭6 7 8) with a flatted 7th it should be 1 2 ♭3 4 5 ♭6 ♭7 8 and therefore he should have said natural minor with a raised 7th and a raised 6th ascending to b7th and natural 6th descending. Correct me if I'm wrong!

[merseybeat]

No! the Melodic Ascending (JAZZ MINOR) is 1,2,b3,4,5,6,7

Your 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7 = Natural Minor (Aeolian) or descending Melodic Minor (but lets drop this term!)

HM = 1,2,b3,4,5,b6,7

I try not to think of the complete scale but just that small group of notes or motif that define the flavor! I find thinking this way is a lot easier for me! so I have all these instantly in my grip! Also now when playing a Mixolydian I know where my b5, #5, b9, #9 notes are. Seriously its a lot more productive to span a chord shape over one octave (root-root, 3rd-3rd, 7th-7th etc.) and play with the notes this way! When the chord changes, change your octave span to cover the next chord! As long as you see the arpeggio you will never get lost again! As an added note, It also alows you to break all the rules and invent your own scales! Mix and mash! as long as it sounds good no-one is going to pull you on it!

Eddie

[shoome]

i messed things around, you surely are right... funny I'm speaking about the way i approach melodic minor (taking a major scale and changing the 3 to the b3) and now am completley messing around with it... i should go into a corner and be ashamed of myself D:

[merseybeat]

No not at all! Play it loud! If the guy at the bar smiles then play it again!
Theory is the first thing to leave your brain once you start playing! Its a good thing!

Eddie

[shoome]

that's right but i hope something like that won't happen to me at my audition tests next year

[Claudi]

Originally Posted by merseybeat

When I did the Berklee course they stressed the term JAZZ MINOR to eliminate this confusion i.e. ascend and descend with the Major 7th.

I agree/accept this term.
Anyway, I read in my coservatoire book that when playing this scale ascending and descending the same way then it's called minor mixed. you see, there a lot of ways to call the scale but the most important is that we can understand each other.

Shoome, I think we're saying the same thing with different words.

[shoome]

Originally Posted by merseybeat

No not at all! Play it loud! If the guy at the bar smiles then play it again!

And what if this guy is a drummer?

[merseybeat]

In my experience Ive never seen a drummer at the bar!

[bobsguitars09]

Originally Posted by jimmyb

Bob, I think you are slightly confused. All 7 modes have the same 7 notes which is the collections of tones in the tonal center

I get it now!

"If" I want to have a "shape" or mode for each scale degree I would
be missing 1 and 4. But. If I simply add a F on the first fret in C
to shape 5 I get Lydian! same with shape 7. it is connected with
shape 1. so there is no need for shape 4 and 1 because they can be
the same exact "shapes" with one extra note anyway.
Adding shapes for 1 and 4 in this context would be redundant.

awesome. I get it.. hard to explain it but I get it.

Thanks!

[bobsguitars09]

Originally Posted by shoome

i memorize those shapes based on the major scales like some/most people here do ... here is a little chart that i made for myself. (red dots-root, blue dots-b3 from mm). (If the pic is too big, pls tell me and ill just link it...)


I tried to memorize separate mm-shapes but i just wasnt able to get it done as smoothly as with this approach. It just comes down to the way you like to think of the mm-scale :-)

I like this approach a lot. I am stuck on a few keys though..If I want to apply other scales to these types of shapes.

Key of Db.. Shape 3 starts on First Fret..

Key of Gb.. Shape 7
starts on First Fret

key of B.. Shape 5
Starts on Second Fret.
(3 on First fret of D String and 6 on First Fret on G String..)

Key of E.. Shape 2 E F# G# A B C# D#
starts on Second Fret.
Fine until you get to the 3 on the first fret of the G String..

[bobsguitars09]

I tried this with the 3 note per string modes also and

F# 7 on F..
Solution? Use Shape 1 on
F# First.

Ab 6 on 1st fret..
Solution? shape 7
on G

[bobsguitars09]

Originally Posted by jimmyb

There is no need for the melodic minor shapes. The shapes cover all scales. The important thing about scales is that they analyze a sound. If you use the outside note B nat through a Cm7 chord you have the melodic minor sound. You learn a scale to produce a sound. Or I think the sound gets used and then theory makes a scale from it. Goes way back to pre classical period.

It's almost like "What came 1st? The chicken or the egg.

There is no need for the melodic minor shapes. The shapes cover all scales.

This is where I get lost. can someone explain this to me? and how you would apply this to maybe,12 keys of major/melodic and harmonic minor?

Thanks!

[shoome]

Originally Posted by bobsguitars09

Key of Db.. Shape 3 starts on First Fret..

Key of Gb.. Shape 7
starts on First Fret

key of B.. Shape 5
Starts on Second Fret.
(3 on First fret of D String and 6 on First Fret on G String..)

Key of E.. Shape 2 E F# G# A B C# D#
starts on Second Fret.
Fine until you get to the 3 on the first fret of the G String..

Hmm... I don't quiet get what your problem is here... could you explain a bit further? What do you mean by "Shape 7"? In my approach I only use 5 Shapes..
Could be that I just am too tired at the moment but if you explain your problem a bit further, I'll try to help



(I like Jimmy Bruno's Approach a lot... once you get it, it really helps. But since I'm going to do my auditions tests next year I prefer to cover at least the melodic minor scale by it's own. I really don't think that anyone really needs more than the major-, melodic minor- and sometimes harmonic minor-scales to cover it all...)

[FatJeff]

There are only 5 shapes in Jimmy Bruno's approach, but they are named for the scale degree on which they start on the lowest string, so there is no shape 4 and there is no shape 1.

Shoome, you are exactly where I was before I entered music school. I enrolled in JB's online school about 6 months before I auditioned for school. I think it helped out a lot, and I credit it for a large part of why I was admitted. You can worry about modes, & harmonic and melodic minor scales once you are actually in school. For now, I would focus on being able to make the changes and creating good melodic lines.

[bobsguitars09]

Originally Posted by bobsguitars09

There is no need for the melodic minor shapes. The shapes cover all scales.

This is where I get lost. can someone explain this to me? and how you would apply this to maybe,12 keys of major/melodic and harmonic minor?

Thanks!

There is no need for the melodic minor shapes. The shapes cover all scales.

This is where I get lost. can someone explain this to me? and how you would apply this to maybe,12 keys of major/melodic and harmonic minor?

Thanks!

[FatJeff]

The 5 shapes are based off the major scale, which contains 7 of the possible 12 notes in the chromatic scale. Therefore there are 5 notes that are "outside". Jimmy's system addresses each of the "outside" notes individually as "colors". Once you internalize these sounds, you are free to pick any/all of them to create your sonic masterpiece.

For the melodic minor scale, which differs from the major scale in only one note (the 3rd), you have a choice. Either learn the scale as a simple alteration of the major scale by flatting the 3rds of the shapes you already know; or, learn the MM scale as its own deal.