Just wondering about scales, solo-ing etc

[billkath]

I was just wondering about "the greats" of yesteryear. I've been reading the last few weeks about different scales, arps, modes and devices, and how they are being used in songs. Especially to explain how this or that solo was done. How transcribing songs will help you , somehow, how to solo.

Then I thought-perhaps they (the original artist) didn't do any of that stuff-conciously thinking about what they were doing theoretically. Perhaps they just played what they thought sounded good over a given chord progression.

Does anybody else think that might be the case? I mean-obviously they might "know" a lot of the theoretical stuff, but do you think, as I do, that they are not consciously doing it whilst building an original solo?

I ask because-Sunday night's solo gig was for a bunch of old-age pensioners, in the hotel as part of an active-retirement group jaunt. Anyway- I was doing a few Michael Buble songs, and was doing "The Way you look tonight". Instead of doing the stock solo off the record I just did my own. Don't know why- I usually do the stock solo. I wasn't thinking at all about the original solo, or things like "I'll arp over that G diminished to C#7 to C7b9, then go to a run.." stuff. I was just humming a solo in my head and putting my fingers on the frets. When I hit a note that wasn't quite the one I'd been thinking of I'd either slide or bend it up to where I wanted to, which would then lead me to going in a different direction-etc.

I guess I'm asking-Is solo-ing something you can be taught, or is it really about creativity, being able to hear in your head something that sounds good, and being able to put those thoughts down on your instrument?

[ajrdileva]

How did you learn to play? Did you take lessons?
Have you ever read about chords and voicings in the guitar or you just created all your playing from nothing?

Originally Posted by billkath

I was just wondering about "the greats" of yesteryear. I've been reading the last few weeks about different scales, arps, modes and devices, and how they are being used in songs. Especially to explain how this or that solo was done. How transcribing songs will help you , somehow, how to solo.

Then I thought-perhaps they (the original artist) didn't do any of that stuff-conciously thinking about what they were doing theoretically. Perhaps they just played what they thought sounded good over a given chord progression.

Does anybody else think that might be the case? I mean-obviously they might "know" a lot of the theoretical stuff, but do you think, as I do, that they are not consciously doing it whilst building an original solo?

I ask because-Sunday night's solo gig was for a bunch of old-age pensioners, in the hotel as part of an active-retirement group jaunt. Anyway- I was doing a few Michael Buble songs, and was doing "The Way you look tonight". Instead of doing the stock solo off the record I just did my own. Don't know why- I usually do the stock solo. I wasn't thinking at all about the original solo, or things like "I'll arp over that G diminished to C#7 to C7b9, then go to a run.." stuff. I was just humming a solo in my head and putting my fingers on the frets. When I hit a note that wasn't quite the one I'd been thinking of I'd either slide or bend it up to where I wanted to, which would then lead me to going in a different direction-etc.

I guess I'm asking-Is solo-ing something you can be taught, or is it really about creativity, being able to hear in your head something that sounds good, and being able to put those thoughts down on your instrument?

[musicalbodger]

BK

Instead of doing the stock solo off the record I just did my own. Don't know why- I usually do the stock solo. I wasn't thinking at all about the original solo, or things like "I'll arp over that G diminished to C#7 to C7b9, then go to a run.." stuff. I was just humming a solo in my head and putting my fingers on the frets. When I hit a note that wasn't quite the one I'd been thinking of I'd either slide or bend it up to where I wanted to, which would then lead me to going in a different direction-etc.

THAT'S JAZZ! Seriously, that's what it's all about. You've found what it's all about. As Bird said, when you're on the stand forget all the learning and just play. I'm very happy for you. Forget all this shit that ajrdileva is purveying, you know enough to blow. Now you just need confidence that you're on the right path.

[ajrdileva]

As Bird said, when you're on the stand forget all the learning and just play

Originally Posted by musicalbodger

BK

THAT'S JAZZ! Seriously, that's what it's all about. You've found what it's all about. As Bird said, when you're on the stand forget all the learning and just play. I'm very happy for you. Forget all this shit that ajrdileva is purveying, you know enough to blow. Now you just need confidence that you're on the right path.

[billkath]

Originally Posted by ajrdileva

How did you learn to play? Did you take lessons?
Have you ever read about chords and voicings in the guitar or you just created all your playing from nothing?

I started playing guitar when I was about 8 or 9. Never had a formal lesson. Learnt from chord books,songbooks, sheetmusic, listening to and playing along with records and from playing with other people. Have been playing guitar in formal gigs since i was about 16-17 and I earn my living from gigging. Rock, Pop, Country etc. Learnt most of the songs i know by just playing along-pick up the needle, put it back again, repeat. God, I miss vinyl!! Picked up some theory along the way-learnt to read music, learnt chord construction etc. Just be reading and doing.

Got into jazz (playing, not listening) January this year, after swapping a HK Audio PA for an Archtop, as I see both a hole in the market here for jazz, but also because I really love the old songs, swing,bebop, bigband, trad etc, and because I'm getting a bit old to be singing Poker Face!!! Decided that I needed more theory, or rather that I WANTED to learn more theory, for various other reasons,not related to guitar. However, I'm finding that perhaps the structured methods aren't suiting someone like me. I've always been a "feel" person, and learn by doing best.

So-for me, and probably only me-the best way to learn how to play jazz is-
1/ Learn the chords . In 5 positions at least, each. Luckily, that's easy for me, as I already can play Rock, pop, and country. just learn some new shapes is all.

2/Listen to lots of jazz music, and busk along with the songs-to really learn the songs. As with lots of other guitarists who are coming from other music-no use being a guitarist if you can't sit around at a party with an acoustic and knock out the tunes. Rhythm guitar first-lead when it comes. Learn to back others- gets you gigging.Take a solo once in a while till you're able to move on to taking solo's all the time.

3/Listen to what the lead player (not necessarily only thea guitarist) is doing on songs, and learn that. Learn the common licks-things everyone does-by ear.

I'm practicing scales and Arps, and learning some theory as well, but most of my time is devoted to listening to and playing songs.

[fep]

A little bit of time on theory and scales and arps, and a lot of time playing songs and playing songs in bands.

Bill that sounds like a great approach. It's great you have the skill and opportunity to hone your skills on the bandstand.

[billkath]

Originally Posted by musicalbodger

BK

THAT'S JAZZ! Seriously, that's what it's all about. You've found what it's all about. As Bird said, when you're on the stand forget all the learning and just play. I'm very happy for you. Forget all this shit that ajrdileva is purveying, you know enough to blow. Now you just need confidence that you're on the right path.

Thanks-and it's what I love-playing. I AM trying to get to grips with the theory stuff as well, but I'm wondering how useful it will be to me personally from an actual playing point of view. Who knows? I mean, I am discovering that really practicing scales and arps IS helping me hear and play all songs better-not just jazz. I'm not convinced about it being necessary needed yet to play jazz, but it's something that i do enjoy, so will learn.
I know a teacher would be a good thing, but i prefer reading what a teacher is saying, going over it in my head, and then putting that into practice in my own way. Maybe a wrong way , but I always feel if it sounds good, it's good enough for me.

[musicalbodger]

Hey man, it's so still tonight I think I can hear your practice wafting over the water

If it sounds good, it is good. Even if it only sounds good to you, it is, after all, your music. Just keep learning, whichever way suits. There is no wrong or right way, just do what works for you. The theory will help but it takes a while for the brain to assimilate it and you might find there are times when you feel it's restricting your playing but it's all good in the end. As for scales/arps practice, they will certainly improve your ear and confidence.

[xonelnoj2003]

Hi! I'm back. Spent a lot of time in the 'shed'. Interesting topic that's also simple to achieve. Yeah, when you get on the stand just play what's in your head as long as it's in tune with the changes. Practice those things (licks) until they are apart of you and if and when you copy a lick (some one elses idea) chang it up to suit you and your fingering and you'll start hearing all the possibilities; also learn solos by rote and your own ideas will start to take over.

[Robertkoa]

I'm not a Jazz guy though I use some of that methodology ( especially " running changes " and playing vertically ) and chord voicings.

Some people really take to transcribing things and it helps them and they like it .

Personally I just simplify things - I love the Jazz Guys for their extensive knowledge and compositional/ improv ability and personally I try to get what I need and conceptualize for myself.

I think most players eventually get to the point where they start " hearing " in their mind what they want to and sometimes the mental image syncs up with reality while they are playing and they " speak " through the instrument.

When experienced players "woodshed" they are often absorbing different sounds and intervals and getting them "programmed in " to their mind and hands, once the new concepts , patterns , note groupings are absorbed they become part of the vocabulary and hopefully it all crystallizes into a cool style.

Some players are so talented and absorb so much that they can solo like different people, consciously changing "hats" which can be very impressive when you see this on a gig.

I've seen , years ago a few top 40 rock guys that would get the tone AND feel of MANY different players and actually IMPROVISE in the player's style like they're Gilmour, then SRV, then Blackmore , then Hendrix etc. and there are some that can even do this on a Jazz level- just depends on which type you want to be or naturally fall into.

And in Miami in the 80s there was a lot of Jazz going on - and I saw some very talented guys do that in a Jazz vein to a degree as well.


Transcribing solos is a deep , labor intensive method ( unless it comes easily to you ) and is definitely NOT necessary to learn to solo or even cop a certain style, but it's very dependent on who you are etc. There are many established pros( even famous ones ) who transcribe solos ( or violin parts etc. ) to broaden their vocabulary and abilities .

Just saying I don't think it's necessary to do that to learn to solo.

I also think not too many people want to hear someone play scales- meaning as they are written in order with no wide intervals.

In the end I think it mostly does comes down to hearing it( in your mind ) and playing it and sometimes taking chances , then resolving back inside the changes ( landing on chord tones and extensions after going a bit "out ") and even when you go out on a limb , I think most hear the resolution in their mind just before or AS they are doing it.