Does this make sense?

[GuitaRoland]

When I went through some of my old papers I found notes made sometime in the 80's.

They were copied and freely translated from an American Guitar Magazine to Swedish so I just translated them back. I hope that they are understandable.

What would you make out of the notes, do they make any sense or is it a simplified way of explanation and what would the name of the scales for each example be?

Tonal Centres and Altered Tonal Centers

The tonal centre can become a free substitute for improvisation. When there are several choices for each situation, it is important to understand the produced effect whenever different tonal centres are used.

Only when you are fully aware of the characteristic of each altered tonal centre it will possible to use them safely and effectively. Although they are basics for many jazz guitarists certain positions are more associated with certain guitarists.

For example:
Wes Mongomery, George Benson and Joe Pass widely have been using the "tone down" principle (No. 1, 2 and 10) while Jim Mullen, Eric Gale and Cornell Dupree favours the concept to "minorise" major7 tonalities. When you can relate to the "sounds" produced by altered tonality you will gradually recognise their use when playing. Over time your ears will tell you which scale or mode is most suitable in a given situation.

Use:

1. Major tonal centre one step lower than a dominant7 situation.
2. Major tonal centre one step lower than a minor7 situation.
3. Major tonal centre a fourth higher than a dominant7 situation.
4. Major tonal centre one semitone higher than a minor7b5 situation.
5. Convert a minor7b5 to a 9-chord (root becomes the 3rd) and use ideas from 1, 3, 10 and 14.
6. Major tonal centre a fifth higher than a major7 situation.
7. Major tonal centre, which is the same as the given major7 chord.
8. Major tonal centre a minor third higher than a minor7 or dominant7 situation
9. Minor tonal centre a major third higher than a major7 situation.
10. Minor tonal centre a fifth higher than a dominant7 situation.
11. Dominant7 tonal centre a fourth higher than a minor7 situation.
12. Major tonal centre a minor third higher than a minor7 situation.
13. Major tonal centre a minor sixth higher than a minor7 situation.
14. Dominant7 tonal centre a b5 higher than a dominant7 situation.

Also note that the tonal examples above also works vice versa.

Thanks!
/R

[randalljazz]

all 'common' substitutions...

[fep]

You've got me confused with your use of the term tonal center? Perhaps a translation issue?

Say your Dom7 chord is A7... The tonal center is A.

If you choose to play the notes of G major over that A7 chord the tonal center is still A.

A tonal center refers to a note, the note that is the 'One' or the 'Do' of a particular key or mode. A tonal center doesn't refer to a whole scale or to a chord.

So saying "Major Tonal Center one step lower than a dominant7 situation" is an incorrect use of the term "Tonal Center". A tonal center can't be major or minor, it's just one note.

What I think you're communicating would be better written as:

The notes of a Major scale one whole step lower than a Dominant7 chord.

However better yet would be to go with common usage and just say: "The dorian mode over a Dominant7 chord (for example A dorian over an A7 chord)".

[GuitaRoland]

Originally Posted by fep

You've got me confused with your use of the term tonal centre? Perhaps a translation issue?

Thanks for your comment Fep. I may be from Sweden but no, there is no mix up in the translation. Tonal centre will in Swedish be "tonalt centrum" so the problem can't be there.
I copied the text from an English spoken (written?) magazine in the 80's so I didn't come up with those terms. That's part of why I wanted an explanation in this matter that wasn't all clear to me. Hope to get some more response on this thread.

/R

[mr. beaumont]

tonal center (here) is the idea of a major, minor, or dominant sound. we can interpret these as an arpeggio, for argument's sake.

for example, bullet one suggests a major sound a step lower than a dominant chord, like Fmaj7 over G7. The resultant notes yields a 13th chord sound.

Like randall said, these are failrly common and i'll add--very useful. Good post GuitaRoland.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

What's the best way to interpret these? For example:

1. Major tonal centre one step lower than a dominant7 situation.

Is that suggesting a FMaj7 arpeggio over G7? As Mr. B says, that's a G13th sound. OR is that suggesting the whole F major scale over G7 (including the Bb)?

I can hear the FMaj7 arp over G7, but I'd prefer a F lydian sound (with a Bnat) over G7.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Slow Friday afternoon at work for me, so I'm going to poke at these:

a) four note arpeggio over chord
and/or
b) scale over chord

I'll take the chords from C.

1. Major tonal centre one step lower than a dominant7.

a) F-A-C-E over G7: result sounds like G13. Cool. This is an easy way to get that 13th sound.

b) F-G-A-Bb-C-D-E-F over G7: the outlier there is Bb, which sounds like a blue note over G7. Often, because the 4th tone (Bb) is an avoid note, folks play a Bnat instead for a lydian feel. Since the result in this case are notes from the key of C (over G7) you may say "what's the difference?", but if you're *thinking* FMaj7(#11), you will emphasize different notes. Once again, cool.

2. Major tonal centre one step lower than a minor7.

a) C-E-G-B over Dmin7: sounds like Dmin13. Call me old school, but the 7th, 9th and 11th sound good over Dmin7, but the 13th not so much.

b) C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C over Dmin7: Same notes as D dorian, but with different emphasis.

3. Major tonal centre a fourth higher than a dominant7.

a) C-E-G-B over G7. Sounds like you've resolved the dominant to the tonic ahead of time. Coltrane can do it, but I can't! C is a clanger to me, unless it's a G7sus4.

4. Major tonal centre one semitone higher than a minor7b5.

a) C-E-G-B over Bmin7b5: Hmmm... I find the flat ninth (C) the trickiest note over Bmin7b5, but that is maybe because I can hear the chord as G9.

5. Convert a minor7b5 to a 9-chord (root becomes the 3rd) and use ideas from 1, 3, 10 and 14.

What I just said! Too lazy to carry this through...

6. Major tonal centre a fifth higher than a major7.

a) G-B-D-F# over CMaj7: Yeah, baby yeah! Maj7#11 sound.

b) G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G over CMaj7: I think I like this better than C major over C.

7. Major tonal centre, which is the same as the given major7 chord.

Well, vanilla is the world's most popular flavor.

8. Major tonal centre a minor third higher than a minor7 or dominant7

a) F-A-C-E over Dmin7; Bb-D-F-A over G7: different, eh? The first is a min9 sound, the second a 9th with a blue note. Both work, but the latter I'd want to resolve the Bb to A or Bnat eventually.

9. Minor tonal centre a major third higher than a major7.

a) E-G-B-D over CMaj7: result sounds like CMaj9. Cool.

10. Minor tonal centre a fifth higher than a dominant7.

a) D-F-A-C over G7: G11 sound, how about D-F-A-C# for a #11?

11. Dominant7 tonal centre a fourth higher than a minor7.

a) G-B-D-F over Dmin7: this is Joe Pass's "play V over the ii in a ii-V-I"

12. Major tonal centre a minor third higher than a minor7.

a) F-A-C-E over Dmin7: Dmin9 sound.

13. Major tonal centre a minor sixth higher than a minor7.

a) Bb-D-F-A over Dmin7: meh. Not wild about it. You?

14. Dominant7 tonal centre a b5 higher than a dominant7.

a) Db-F-Ab-Cb over G7: classic tritone sub. "coolest" one yet.

-------------------------------------------------------------

Summary: beware of any list with more than 7 things one it. I'm taking about you, too, 10 Commandments!

What makes more sense to me are some basic seeds of ideas, like shift:
i) up a third for 9th sound (tweaked for major, dom, minor, half-diminished cases)
ii) down a third for a 6th sound
iii) up a fifth for an 11th sound -- consider a #11 on major and dom.
iv) down a step for a 13th sound.

[GuitaRoland]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

Slow Friday afternoon at work for me, so I'm going to poke at these:

a) four note arpeggio over chord
and/or
b) scale over chord

Thanks BDLH - You made my day!

/R

[gersdal]

Originally Posted by GuitaRoland

When I went through some of my old papers I found notes made sometime in the 80's.

They were copied and freely translated from an American Guitar Magazine to Swedish so I just translated them back. I hope that they are understandable.

American Guitar Magazine from the 80's read by a Swede I guess that would be Guitar Player? That was the only American guitar magazine available in Norway at that time. Do you know the year and month... and pages ... or writer perhaps? Looks interesting, but I would like to check the original text. I've got all the Guitar Player magazines back to the early 70's...

[gersdal]

Ignoring the discussion about tonal centre, which I find confusing and strange in the OP question (or in really in the guitar mag referred to), I end up with pretty much the same as BigDaddyLoveHandles.

An interpretation of the written material could be:
1. Major tonal centre one step lower than a dominant7 situation.
Playing e.g. F major scale over G7 would imply that a play a G dorian type scale over the G7. Bluesy and great … at times.

2. Major tonal centre one step lower than a minor7 situation.
Playing e.g. F major scale over a Gm7 is the G-dorian scale. The tonal centre would be F, and you would really be playing F major

3. Major tonal centre a fourth higher than a dominant7 situation.
A forth higher than G would be C. Playing C major over a G7 imply a G-mixolydian scale. The standard choice for a dominant 7th.

4. Major tonal centre one semitone higher than a minor7b5 situation.
C major scale played over a Bm7b5. Locrian scale.

5. Convert a minor7b5 to a 9-chord (root becomes the 3rd) and use ideas from 1, 3, 10 and 14.
Bm7b5 converted to a 9-chord with the root as the third will mean that the chord you are really thinking about is a G9. Playing idea 1 would be tricky, and would not include the root of the original chord (Bm7b5), but I’m sure it could sound good. Playing idea 3 would be just like playing idea 3 as far as I can see.

6. Major tonal centre a fifth higher than a major7 situation.
D major scale over a Gmaj7 chord. Lydian scale!

7. Major tonal centre, which is the same as the given major7 chord.
G major scale over Gmaj7. Ionian scale or really the major scale itself.

8. Major tonal centre a minor third higher than a minor7 or dominant7 situation
Bb major scale played over a Gm7 is the G-aeolian scale or G-minor scale.
Bb major scale played over a G7 is still the G-aeolian scale or G-minor scale, but will have the blues in it as the minor 3rd is included. Interesting. Must be tested.

9. Minor tonal centre a major third higher than a major7 situation.
B-minor scale played over a Gmaj7 chord: B-minor scale is the same as D-major scale. Hence, this is exactly the same as idea 6.

10. Minor tonal centre a fifth higher than a dominant7 situation.
D minor scale over a G7 chord. D minor scale is the same as a F major scale, so we are talking idea 1 again.

11. Dominant7 tonal centre a fourth higher than a minor7 situation.
I guess this means that G mixolydian scale is played over a Dm7 chord. If that is true, this is just becoming confusing. It is the C major scale, or D dorian scale if you prefer.

12. Major tonal centre a minor third higher than a minor7 situation.
This is already mentioned in idea 8.

13. Major tonal centre a minor sixth higher than a minor7 situation.
A minor 6th higher than g is Eb. Playing Eb major scale over Gm7 would be the Phrygian scale.

14. Dominant7 tonal centre a b5 higher than a dominant7 situation.
Playing Db mixolydian over a G7. Standard tri-tone substitution.

A confusing way of presenting it, and not very good in a theoretical sense, but maybe it can be helpful. They all seems to be workable substitutions.

It's getting late here, so I'll check again tomorrow.

[GuitaRoland]

Originally Posted by gersdal

American Guitar Magazine from the 80's read by a Swede I guess that would be Guitar Player? That was the only American guitar magazine available in Norway at that time. Do you know the year and month... and pages ... or writer perhaps? Looks interesting, but I would like to check the original text. I've got all the Guitar Player magazines back to the early 70's...

Sorry Gersdal, can't help you with that. In Sweden we had Guitar Player and Guitar World, I used to buy them occasionally but not regularly. Still I don't have them any longer, they have been thrown away years ago. I can't even remember if it was in GP or GW I found that reportage.

I am a subscriber of the magazine Guitarist since 20 years back so that's my favourite. All these issues I still have in my possession for references and for the fun reading them of course. They come with a CD or DVD so I have all since they started attaching CD/DVD.

Thanks anyway!
/R

[gersdal]

Originally Posted by GuitaRoland

Sorry Gersdal, can't help you with that. In Sweden we had Guitar Player and Guitar World, I used to buy them occasionally but not regularly. Still I don't have them any longer, they have been thrown away years ago. I can't even remember if it was in GP or GW I found that reportage.

Ok. It would have been interesting to see the original article, tho.

An everlasting interesting question when it comes to improvising is the question: What can I do over e.g. a dominant 7th chord (We're now talking mostly vertical approach to improvising... where vertical approach means that the player solos according to the current chord, and the horizontal approach that the player solos according to the current scale).

I made this table some time back, and it definitely gives you a lot of options. I haven't done any proof reading, so there is probably things that could be discussed ....



I think you will find that most of the ideas in the article you referred to are included in this table in scale options or in arpeggio options.

The next interesting step is how to combine these over a ii-V-I etc. This is when the real fun starts.

[GuitaRoland]

Originally Posted by gersdal

I think you will find that most of the ideas in the article you referred to are included in this table in scale options or in arpeggio options.

The next interesting step is how to combine these over a ii-V-I etc. This is when the real fun starts.

Thanks Gersdal, I appreciate your patience with me, and others maybe, that don't have the theoretical knowledge and need some help along the way.

/R