Chord scales for b5 Dom7 substitutions

[The Clave kid]

Hello my people

If you have a 2-5-1 chord progression like so: F-7 - E7 - Ebmaj7. What chord scale would you use to improvise over the E7 (b5 sub) chord. I know its one of the melodic minor modes.

I don't know whats the most common one for this trick, can anyone help?

[Alex Carvalho]

E lydian b7 (B melodic minor) thats the name I prefer although some people call it lydian dominant...

[JohnW400]

You could also just play the F jazz melodic minor over both the ii and the V

F G Ab Bb C D E

If you think Bb7b5 the notes are 5 13 7 1 2 3 #11
If you think E7b5 the notes are b9 #9 3 b5 b13 7 1

You should read through the past posts on this site. This question has been asked and answered for pages and pages

"What do you play on the V chord?"

[Alex Carvalho]

hey John, I think a more common scale choice for the subV mentioned above is lydian flat 7, because natural 9s and 13s are common in subVs. the altered mode that you suggested is effective when the altered 9s and 13s are specified in the chord symbol (I personally love it, but only if the chordal player is aware).
Scale choices depend not only on the notes, but also on the function that the chord provides in the harmonic scheme, and also on the scales used before and after.

[Patriots2006]

I'd be more inclined to agree with JohnW400. You are in the key of Eb which implies b9 and b13 on the E7th chord. It does not have to be indicated in the chord symbol. The chords before and after the subV7 chord are diatonic to the key. I suppose if you are good at playing (outside) you can make the natural 9th and 13 work.

[Alex Carvalho]

Hey Patriots, the reason I think it should be specified in the chord symbol is that 90% of times we'll hear lydian-flat 7 sound over a subV. An altered SubV sounds great but it's less common, despite the fact that the altered 9s and 13s are diatonic to the key (remember that the very root E is not). Play E altered scale over a plain E7 chord as John pointed out, then try the lydian flat7. Which one sounded more natural?
However, if the chordal player plays E7(#9)(b13) of course...

[Patriots2006]

(Quote)Play E altered scale over a plain E7 chord as John pointed out, then try the lydian flat7. Which one sounded more natural?


Correct me if I am misunderstanding you, but based on your quote you are isolating the E7 chord and disregarding anything before or after it. For that matter I could conceivably play an A major scale on the E7 chord. You would generally use available tensions based on what the key sinature of the tune is or the key of the moment if such is the case unless of course you are purposely attempting to play outside.

[The Clave kid]

Yes the Altered scale was what I first thought of. But then I realised that E Altered scale had a Bb instead of a B natural. So I asked the question. The lydian b7 sound like a better choice as it includes all of the E7 chord tones. Thanks for your time people

What about this progression C-7 D7 Bbmaj+11

Its a altered 2-5-1 progression. The D7 is a 6th degree substitution
What scales would you guy's use over these 3 chords?

[JohnW400]

I think we're all better served by remembering that there is no 'One scale does it all " approach

I could list for you (as well as a lot of aother members here) scale after scale after arpeggio, substitution, pitch collection, whatever.

The bigger picture here is not what to use but what do you hear. Clave Kid, play the chord progression and sing (hum or whistle) a line. Figure out what notes/scales fit what you sang and that's the scale you use.

On your latest, ONE I might play is the G jazz minor scale. I would 'think' about changing the Bb to Gmi6/9 and then you get a V-i thing. For the Cmi, Maybe the Eb harmonic major scale just to avoid the C

But again, tons of possible scale choices, arpeggio choices, etc etc etc

[The Clave kid]

Fair enough John It's kind of what I've been doing. I've been experimenting with the Melodic minor modes for some time. It's good to ask people what they would use, to pick your brains

[Alex Carvalho]

The A major scale would give the 4th against the E7, a non-harmonic tone that'd have to be treated as such (mixolydian), not a big deal though.
In jazz, it is a common practice to "color" any chord with modes that give tensions that are non-diatonic to the key, especially on dominant chords. I honestly don't know why lydian b7 became the standard for subVs, I guess it has to do with voice-leading, half-step motion of tensions within the II- bII7 I, but I agree with John, it is pretty much about what one hears. To play outside for me is to play notes that are not chord tones nor available tensions to the chord of the moment, not to the key. Notes outside to the key are everywhere in secondary dominants, passing chords etc.
If one wants a smooth passage, choose scales that have more commom tones with each other, not to the key, as the notion of key is so fragmented in modern jazz. Example: Amaj7 D7 Amaj7
1) Ionian lydb7 Ionian (one note difference) smooth sound
2) Ionian Whole-tone Ionian (two notes diff) less natural, more spicy
Anyway, nice topic.

[The Clave kid]

So Alex (or anyone) what chord scales would you use over this progression?

C-7 D7 Bbmaj+11

Its a altered 2-5-1 progression. The D7 is a 6th degree substitution

[Reg]

Depends on context...always, but sounds like C-, D7, G-, with Bbmaj7 substituted for G-. Harmonic Min. or IV, V, I (deceptively resolving to bIII rather than I), or relative major of G-, pretty standard...can you explain your 6th degree substitution process...I think I understand, but would dig hearing more details of sub. process. thanks Reg

[The Clave kid]

It could very well be Reg. It's in the Jobim standard 'Portrait in Black and White'. You have (in my chart anyway) a F-7 E7 Bbmaj+11 progression followed by C-7 D7 Bbmaj+11.

When I said 6th degree I meant F7 to D7

Cheers for the good advice

[Alex Carvalho]

Hey clave kid,
I seldom use one scale over more than two or three chords in tonal music. In this case, among many other options, I'd prefer C dorian, D mixo b9 b13 (whose mother scale is G harm minor, as if going to G minor) like Reg pointed out, then Bb lydian.
The trick is changing scales so smoothly and naturally that the listener won't notice the change, it is all about phrasing... instead of hearing three scales, we hear one line. It is possible to keep G harmonic minor for the three chords, but I guess it'd sound somewhat out of the bossa nova style, kinda too hip sound against the C- and BbMaj#11.

[Reg]

Yea...rarely stay in one harmonic area more than a couple of beats, was trying to simplify, call C-7#11, IV chord of Harmonic minor, the D7 could be V chord of G Harmonic Min. or modal interchange to G Melodic Min. which would cover The Bbmaj.#11, or bIII of GMM. But now that we know the melody and composer... Reg