Chords of the nine tone scale and others

[d.am]

hi guys just trying to get my head around certain chord/scale relationships

for example im trying to look at a progression im playing and see what the chords in the scale

its is the c nine tone scale

1. what are the chords in the progression

2. Is there a place online i can find these things out for different scales like the taishikicho scale or the bebop minor scale

again i might be completely missing something here

so all help is appreciated

[Reg]

Just build the chords yourself... Most chords in jazz are built in 3rds( we voice in different intervals sometimes) Ex. scale G mixolydian, G.A.B.C.D.E.F.G. chord built on 1st scale tone or G is, G,B,D,F,A,C,E or G13. If you want a 7th chord simple build up to the 7th. G,B,D,F, or G7. The 2nd. note or A is called the 9th, the 4th tone or F is called the 11th and the 6th note or E is called the 13th. Usually when their are extra notes in the scale there are two versions of a note. ex, in C bebop Maj. the G# is either #5 or b6. Reg

[d.am]

Hi Reg
As my knowledge of theory is very limited, i didnt fully understand what you meant,

Could you explain a little more clearly please

i think my question also refered to chord progressions ie

in c major cmaj7 dm7 etc....

[bako]

Could you specify which 9 tone scale you are referring too?

[d.am]

c nine tone

[Reg]

Hey d.am... Sorry if wasn't clear... was runnin out door to gig...
What I meant was. Take the scale, what ever scale and build the vertical collection or mode of each note of the scale.
C maj. C,D,E,F,G.A,B,C, In jazz, chords are built in 3rds.(C maj. scale is built in 2nds) So construct the scale in 3rds... C, E, G, B, D, F, A. or 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th. Chords can be what ever you use, Cmaj9 Cmaj7 etc...Next go through the same process but start on D. The same notes but starting on D, E, F, G, A, B, C, build in 3rds..D, F, A, C, E, G, B. Same numbers 1st, 3rd, 5th etc... That would be D dorian or the 2nd mode of C maj. Now take this process and apply to your nine note scale. Usually scales that have more than 7 notes have added notes, for example; C bebop Maj. C,D,E,F,G,G#,A,B,C. The G# or could be called Ab is either an added #5 or b13( the 6th note) When you build your chords you have two versions of some chords. Ex; The I chord has root C, the 3rd or E, but the 5th can be either,G or G# or both, the 7th would be B etc... If you chose to call G#, a flat 13( 6th note of scale), 5th would be G and when you get to 13 you would use either Ab or A or both and spell chord accordingly. I don't know which nine note scale your making reference to, or I would write it out for you...You understand things better when you take the time to go through the process yourself..Reg

[mr. beaumont]

what's a 9 tone scale anyway? it's gonna be some hybrid deal or a scale with passing tones built in (like the bebop scales), not a collection of pitches that has it's own harmony.

[fep]

Originally Posted by d.am

c nine tone

What is a "c nine tone"?

[d.am]

they way i got to it is put into Guitar Chords in the chords to scale section the chords for a particular song i was writing and it threw up that it was in the C nine tone scale

[bako]

One such 9 tone scale has 3 augmented chords sort of upping the ante on the 2 adjacent augmented chord 6 tone augmented scale.

Augmented Scale: C Eb E G G# B different spellings are possible depending how you define the root of each augmented triad (C+ and Eb+)

Jerry Bergonzi referred to this as a Nine Tone Augmented Scale: C D Eb E F# G Ab Bb B (C+ and D+ and Eb+)

I did a google search on C nine tone scale and found this:
C D D# E F# G G# A B

Many chords are possible

From C it has:

a major and minor 3rd
a b5 and 5 and #5
a major 7
a major 9 and #9
a #11
a b13 and a 13

I would apply this process to every degree and build chords from there.

Just on the 3 note level from C we get:
C major
C augmented
C major b5
C minor
C diminished
C suspended #4

[sysyphus]

That nine tone scale is based on the three most common passing notes.

F# as in the descending bebop scale (#5)
Ab (harmonic minor scale interval)
Db (Blue scale b5 of aeolian scale)

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I have nine toes. Do I win?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by d.am

they way i got to it is put into Guitar Chords in the chords to scale section the chords for a particular song i was writing and it threw up that it was in the C nine tone scale

There's your problem. Just because you pushed in a couple chords and some scale came out the other end doesn't give it any validity.

[fumblefingers]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

what's a 9 tone scale anyway? it's gonna be some hybrid deal or a scale with passing tones built in (like the bebop scales), not a collection of pitches that has it's own harmony.

ditto.

i dont know about the other scales but i'm thinking that the bebop scales have an added tone for melodic and rythmic reasons, not harmonic. the added tones are chromatic tones. they enable you to play chord tones on the beat when running the scale in eigths or sixteenths, assuming that you start on a beat.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

That chords to scale tool mentioned in reply #9 is useless. I tried to enter a simple progression with a passing chord:

CMaj7 C#dim7 Dmin7 ....

And it gave up.

[d.am]

your right i tried a few different things and gave up on it to too! the stuff that came out made it more confusing actually

[cosmic gumbo]

Spanky and me used to go over to the laundry to jam with our friend Chang, and he had this cool looking Chinese banjo with a dragon painted on it. I remember it played these awsome sounding 9 tone scales. It sure sounded righteous along with tuba and washboard!

[3shiftgtr]

did you mean a c scale with nine tones, or a scale that goes with a c9 chord?

[Dgtlgtr]

Suggestion: Go to yahoo and type in INTRODUCTION to the SCALE SYLLABUS PDF. it is only two pages but it is great quick reference for scale/chord. You mentioned your knowledge of theory was lacking.
There are tons of music theory pdfs for free on the web. Some address general theory others are geared more towards Jazz. -Scott

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by 3shiftgtr

did you mean a c scale with nine tones, or a scale that goes with a c9 chord?

This is a thread that just won't die

The original poster revealed, but only in reply #9, that this mystery scale was conjured up by an online tool. As near as I can figger, this magic eight ball starts off with a list of scales (where from?) and then, as, you enter chords, it filters out the one which don't contain all the notes of the chords.

[3shiftgtr]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

This is a thread that just won't die

Sorry BDLH, I should have quoted the OP. That is who I was directing my question to.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by 3shiftgtr

Sorry BDLH, I should have quoted the OP. That is who I was directing my question to.

No harm done. My basic take is that, often, the best way to answer a question is not to answer it at all, but to ask why the person is asking it. In this case, the OP didn't know much about the scale because it was rather random.

[fumblefingers]

Originally Posted by sandra

good work all..........nice comments.........keep it up

yes teacher.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

If we could only hand out gold stars for outstanding posts, like in elementary school.

[saponsky]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

If we could only hand out gold stars for outstanding posts, like in elementary school.

Haha this one is definitively a winner!

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

When my younger daughter Annika was going through her "terrible twos", her older sister Gabby thought she was too stupid to live. I tried to get Gabby to use positive encouragement on Annika for better behaviour. So one day, Gabby overheard us say a phrase and then used it on a medallion for Annika to wear, which she did with great pride. It said, "most improved two-year old".

[michaelsorg]

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

ditto.

i dont know about the other scales but i'm thinking that the bebop scales have an added tone for melodic and rythmic reasons, not harmonic. the added tones are chromatic tones. they enable you to play chord tones on the beat when running the scale in eigths or sixteenths, assuming that you start on a beat.

Bebop scales are definitely harmonically oriented, since they are designed to produce a chord from every second note. Not too many people are aware that there are actually quite number of them, and can be very useful modally.

Take the major bebop scale:
C, D, E, F, G, G# (or Ab), A, B

It's well-known that you can play this in 8th notes starting on any tone of the C6 chord, and you'll be emphasizing chord tones. But what many may not be aware of is that you can start on one of the other tones and play this over a G7b9. Note that the four emphasised tones form the diminished 7th chord (or the upper tones of G7b9). This is a much more harmonically grounded approach than using the diminished octatonic scale.

Of course, the C6 is also an Am7, so it's equally effective on that chord. The diminished 7th chord is, of course, also an E7b9. Again, a much more tonally grounded scale than the diminished, since it contains the tonic A and the minor third C, whereas E, F G, G#, A#, B C#, D contains neither.

The 3rd mode of major bebop, E, F G, G#, A, B C, D was named Spanish Phrygian by Chick Corea, and contains the major triads E, F, G, and C. Beautiful patterns can be developed in this and in all the modes of the scale. I like to call the major bebop scale the "OMNI scale" because of its beauty and flexibility.

The Dorian mode can be emphasized from either chord - of course the diminished seventh with the b5 (Ab over a Dm7) gives more edge.

The scale contains two parallel structures separated by a minor 3rd:
D E F A B and F G Ab C D, basically Dm69 and Fm69.

I'm working on materials to present many useful 8 tone scales, 9 tone scales and 10 tone scales with a naming system that helps to understand, keep track of, and memorize them. I'll post links when some stuff is ready.

[michaelsorg]

Originally Posted by bako

One such 9 tone scale has 3 augmented chords sort of upping the ante on the 2 adjacent augmented chord 6 tone augmented scale.

Augmented Scale: C Eb E G G# B different spellings are possible depending how you define the root of each augmented triad (C+ and Eb+)

Jerry Bergonzi referred to this as a Nine Tone Augmented Scale: C D Eb E F# G Ab Bb B (C+ and D+ and Eb+)

I did a google search on C nine tone scale and found this:
C D D# E F# G G# A B

I've been using 9 tone scales and 10 tone scales in a modal way for improvisation and composition for about 10 years now. Messaien is a composer who was also fond of some of these scales, but his music is quite dissonant compared to mine. The scale mentioned above is the Symmetrical nine tone scale, which I call the Triple Arabian Scale, since it contains 3 Arabian Scales:
B, C ,D#, E, F#, G, A#
Eb, Fb, G, Ab, Bb, Cb, D
G, Ab, B, C, D, Eb, F#

Two other easy to use 9 tone scales, at least one of them also mentioned by Bergonzi (I haven't seen the book for awhile):

D, E, F, G, Ab, A, B, C, C#
This is probably the easiest 9 tone scale to use. It contains the C major bebop scale (see my previous post on this), A harmonic minor, C harmonic major, D melodic minor, F melodic Rumanian, and relationships to numerous to mention. It is perfect for passive approaches to many chords (approaching from a half-step below). I call it the Crystalline Dorian 9 tone scale. (Crystalline is my name for the 6 tone Augmented Scale. Terms like diminished and augmented can be confusing when classifying many different scales.)

A, B, C, D, D#, E, F, G, G#
This is what I call the Hungarian-Arabian 9 tone scale. It's excellent for minor use and active approaches to many chords (from a half-step above). Since it contains A harmonic minor and C harmonic minor, it can create a very serious or melancholy atmosphere. The three 9 tone scales mentioned here are the best-spaced of the 19 nonatonic scales available, having the least number of consecutive half-steps.

You can hear many examples of nine tone modal compositions on my website, though not all of them are identified as 9 tone tunes.

michael-sorg.com

[bako]

Michael,

Great post.

Pianist Barry Harris also speaks about the inherent harmony in great detail of what he refers to as:

Major 6th Diminished----12345b6678

and

Minor 6th Diminished----12b345b6678

as well as some other 8 tone structures.

I look forward to seeing your materials when they are ready.

Best,
Bako

[ksjazzguitar]

Not to dig too much into this mess, but I think that once you step outside of septatonic scales you are also stepping outside of tertian harmony. That's not to say that you are not going to use the same chords, but I don't think you can still build them with the "every other note" of the scale logic. Even some of the septatonic scales get a little dicey there - if you want to build a tonic triad for the altered scale you need to use the b4 for the 3rd. Even with other common scales, What is the 7th note of a whole-tone scale?

Tertian harmony comes from harmonizing the major scale and its modes. It is not some immutable law of the universe that chords have to be generated by going every other note of the scale, but that worked out nicely with those scales to their ears. When we try to extend that to other scales, it gets increasingly difficult.

I say, if you want to still use the same chords that we know and love (makes sense to me) with a scale that doesn't fit the tertian harmony paradigm, then you have to just dig around the scale and see what chords can be constructed with that note set, making any adjustment you need for enharmonics.

Peace,
Kevin