Chords of the nine tone scale and others

[michaelsorg]

Originally Posted by ksjazzguitar

Not to dig too much into this mess, but I think that once you step outside of septatonic scales you are also stepping outside of tertian harmony...I say, if you want to still use the same chords that we know and love (makes sense to me) with a scale that doesn't fit the tertian harmony paradigm, then you have to just dig around the scale and see what chords can be constructed with that note set, making any adjustment you need for enharmonics.

Peace,
Kevin

Hi Kevin, to a certain extent I can agree with that, and I often to try to move away from tertian harmony. The big advantage to composing or improvising with, say a 9 tone scale, is that the ear is already prepared for certain modulations, which allows you to do it more quickly and smoothly without using the ubiquitous ii-V-I. It's a way of programming common tones, in a way, and it's a fun challenge to say a lot without ever using three of the 12 chromatic tones. But most importantly, it's been a great source of ideas. I have a few examples on my site - please excuse the fake guitar patch!!
Michael Sorg Music - Music Theory

[JohnW400]

Originally Posted by bako

Michael,

Great post.

Pianist Barry Harris also speaks about the inherent harmony in great detail of what he refers to as:

Major 6th Diminished----12345b6678

and

Minor 6th Diminished----12b345b6678

as well as some other 8 tone structures.

I look forward to seeing your materials when they are ready.

Best,
Bako

I've seen a Rick Stone article about this in JJG. The main thing I remember was that the harmony revolved around 6th or minor 6th chords alternating between a diminshed (7b9) C6 to Ddmi7

To me this looked too much like the old Mel Bay excercises where they move from say Ami7 to E7b9 (or Ami7b5). It's pretty much the same thing. Wes used this as well in his chord solos. Mi7 to a diminished chord acting as the V7b9. Once you see it, you get it. Alternate the i7 with the V7


I'm not a fan of too many chromatic notes in a scale precisely for the reason Kevin mentions. (And I'm sure everybody knows my dislike of the term bebob scale instead of SCALE Y with a chromatic passing tone between degrees a & b)

At what point do we just call it a chromatic scale without the x, y and z degrees?

Without insulting anybody, By the time you learn the major, harmonic and melodic minors, the pentatonic, the kumoi, the whole tone and the symetrical and finally the chromatic, and all the intervals, arpeggios and harmony that are there in those , Then all the other scales become a waste of time to spend serious time on.

After really learning the scales I mention you should be able to think up any scale, play it and know how the harmony will be affected without having to spend hours on it. If not then you didn't learn all the "standard" scales well enough to understand how all this stuff works.

[bako]

John,

The ma6/dim or m6/dim alternation is just one idea that emerges from this.

Ma6 Diminished can also be viewed as Major and Harmonic Major combined.
min6th Diminished can also be viewed as Melodic Minor and Harmonic Minor combined.

United they combine all of the above material of the companion scales plus a few new possibilities that integrate both A and Ab/G# into the same chord.

I think there are some advantages both to thinking of structures with auxiliary notes or merging it together into one larger unit.
I like to be flexible in my organizational approach because I believe each concept leads to certain musical solutions and a different perspective on the same notes can reveal something different.

"At what point do we just call it a chromatic scale without the x, y and z degrees?"

Good question. Names are tricky business.
Speaking of which, what intervals does "kumoi" refer to.

Thanks,
Bako

[michaelsorg]

Originally Posted by JohnW400

At what point do we just call it a chromatic scale without the x, y and z degrees?

Without insulting anybody, By the time you learn the major, harmonic and melodic minors, the pentatonic, the kumoi, the whole tone and the symetrical and finally the chromatic, and all the intervals, arpeggios and harmony that are there in those , Then all the other scales become a waste of time to spend serious time on.

After really learning the scales I mention you should be able to think up any scale, play it and know how the harmony will be affected without having to spend hours on it. If not then you didn't learn all the "standard" scales well enough to understand how all this stuff works.

But John, how often do we hear the same ol' same ol'?? Why not use this on a C major 7 chord?:
C, Db Eb, E, F#. G, Ab, Bb, B
Especially if the chord progression is C maj7 - C#m9 - Eb7#9 - Abmaj9 - Db9sus11 - Emaj13#11 - Gb13sus11b9 - Abm9

There are whole new territories to be discovered, but they're not for the timid of heart.

Or try the minor mode of the 11 tone scale (C minor, no E):
C minor pentatonic (So What voicing)
D min pent
Eb min pent
F min pent
G min pent
Ab min pent
Bb min pent
Chordal, broken chords, or scale matrix: it all sounds great!

[cosmic gumbo]

The cool thing about the fretless guitar is that you have no limits with set pitches, same with slide guitar. It really helps when you are working with 17 note scales like the venusian quadrant minor mode or the trilydiant augmentated scale. Very righteous sounds indeed. Of course they do tend to sound better on the tuba or trombone.

[JohnW400]

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

The cool thing about the fretless guitar is that you have no limits with set pitches, same with slide guitar. It really helps when you are working with 17 note scales like the venusian quadrant minor mode or the trilydiant augmentated scale. Very righteous sounds indeed. Of course they do tend to sound better on the tuba or trombone.

Funny enough I have the Larry Coryell and Philip Catherine CD "Splendid" playing. Philip is playing a fretless guitar. I think the CD is from the early 80's

[JohnW400]

Originally Posted by michaelsorg

But John, how often do we hear the same ol' same ol'?? Why not use this on a C major 7 chord?:
C, Db Eb, E, F#. G, Ab, Bb, B
Especially if the chord progression is C maj7 - C#m9 - Eb7#9 - Abmaj9 - Db9sus11 - Emaj13#11 - Gb13sus11b9 - Abm9

This is only one note more than the symetrical scale (and three less than the chromatic) So what this scale is a symetrical scale with a chromatic passing tone. BTW I don't ever recal seeing a progression like this. Any songs/tunes out there that use it?

Originally Posted by michaelsorg

There are whole new territories to be discovered, but they're not for the timid of heart.

Or try the minor mode of the 11 tone scale (C minor, no E):
C minor pentatonic (So What voicing)
D min pent
Eb min pent
F min pent
G min pent
Ab min pent
Bb min pent
Chordal, broken chords, or scale matrix: it all sounds great!

All these things you mention already exist by themselves.


I actually think it's better to reduce things down. Like for example triad pairs or even triples. You don't need a nine note scale for that. All you need is to know how each triad functions against the vanilla harmony. ex. A Eb F against an A7 or even just the Eb and F triad against the C# G tritone combo.

To me once you get past the basic major, minors, pentatonics, WT and symmetrical you should have also have a working knowledge of how to create whatever scale , sound chord , tone set/row that you can think of.

When I say get past I mean that with each scale you studied the intervals through 10ths, triad and 7th chord arp's 1 to 3 octaves, harmonized the scale with 7th chords( all inversions) Panditonic chords, quartal , quintal, compound 7ths ,octaves, and 9ths. I forgot to mention arpeggio studies which is another paragraph followed by triad pairs and I left out 3 and 4 tone cluster studies plus interval studies off of the chromatic scale.


If by that point you can't keep yourself from the same old, then I don't think a 9 or 11 note scale will do it for you.

I think a lot of players would be better served milking more out of the basics than by looking for new scales.




But as I always say, If it works for you , that's great. Have at it and enjoy

[JohnW400]

@ Bako

The Kumoi probably has other names but to me its a pentaonic major with a b3 (C D Eb G A)

This gives you the mi6/9, mi11b5, ma7b5, 13th, b9sus4 sounds. (Same as the MM but with less notes) The panditonics on this scale give some options for the iim7b5 to V for soloing with chords

Another pentatonic I happened on was thinking about " hey dom7 alt 5, why not maj7 alt 5?" And I came up with C E F# G# B. This one gives you some interesting chords as well.

[michaelsorg]

Originally Posted by JohnW400

This is only one note more than the symetrical scale (and three less than the chromatic) So what this scale is a symetrical scale with a chromatic passing tone. BTW I don't ever recal seeing a progression like this. Any songs/tunes out there that use it?

All these things you mention already exist by themselves.

I actually think it's better to reduce things down. Like for example triad pairs or even triples. You don't need a nine note scale for that. All you need is to know how each triad functions against the vanilla harmony. ex. A Eb F against an A7 or even just the Eb and F triad against the C# G tritone combo.

To me once you get past the basic major, minors, pentatonics, WT and symmetrical you should have also have a working knowledge of how to create whatever scale , sound chord , tone set/row that you can think of.

When I say get past I mean that with each scale you studied the intervals through 10ths, triad and 7th chord arp's 1 to 3 octaves, harmonized the scale with 7th chords( all inversions) Panditonic chords, quartal , quintal, compound 7ths ,octaves, and 9ths. I forgot to mention arpeggio studies which is another paragraph followed by triad pairs and I left out 3 and 4 tone cluster studies plus interval studies off of the chromatic scale.

If by that point you can't keep yourself from the same old, then I don't think a 9 or 11 note scale will do it for you.

I think a lot of players would be better served milking more out of the basics than by looking for new scales.

But as I always say, If it works for you , that's great. Have at it and enjoy

Hi John,
Actually the tones I listed, C, Db Eb, E, F#. G, Ab, Bb, B do not contain the symmetrical 8-tone scale; that would need an A instead of the Ab. As far as the progression goes, it's not a tune yet, but I'll get around to it...It's just a progression that I more or less improvised from the tones available in the scale. And like you said, you've never seen a progression quite like it. and I would say that is because it is generated from a unique set of nine tones which present their own characteristic set of opportunities to develop a chord sequence which modulates quickly, but with a certain sense of prescience.

I know what you're saying, I think...that it's not necessary to complicate things to make beautiful patterns; why not just say that you can take two pentatonic scales a half step apart, and that creates a cool sound? why do I need to know what 10 tone scale is formed out of that? Well, you might want to know where to apply it to different chords and might want to know what chords are contained in it (which is part of its innate power or charm). You might want to know that all the tones within it lie consecutively along the circle of 4ths/5ths, and for that reason you might want to name it the Quartal 10 tone scale (as I do!) You might also want to know that this scale forms a matrix of pentatonic scales which is, itself, a pentatonic scale. Freddie Hubbard uses it over a minor chord from the dom9sus4 position (i.e., over Gm7 play D min. pent. and Eb min. pent.); whether he consciously thinks of this as a 10 tone scale doesn't really matter: he uses the scale quite intentionally.

Everything you know in music you learned by a combination of hearing, naming and memorization. Every experienced jazz musician can identify a dorian mode, the 7th mode of melodic minor, etc. nearly instantaneously. How? Heard the sound, it had a name, saved into internal memory. Then the 8 tone scales, especially the symmetrical, maybe a few chordal scales (a name for classical musicians or others who object to the name "bebop scales"). Why not train yourself to be able to identify and use on the spot a nine or ten tone scale?

You are absolutely right that the knowledgable musician needs to know all 3 note shapes, 4 note shapes, pentatonic scales, triad pairs (6 note shapes or scales) the 40 tonal 7 tone modes and whichever non-tonal ones seem useful. Then all pairs of mutually exclusive 7th chords (8 tone scales), of course.

You see by now what I'm saying: you can keep combining this stuff into larger conglomerates, which is facilitated by knowing well the smaller sub-units. OK, I admit that I haven't finished learning all the combinations and don't have names for everything, but I have a very strong feeling that the pursuit of this knowledge is important, that it leads to breakthroughs for me. And learning all the 19 different 9 tone scales is much easier than all the 7 tone ones: there are 67 scales, and then 7 modes of most of those! And there are only six 10-tone scales.

But I guess this all only makes sense if you fall in love with it. Like the day I heard Rich Matteson explain the 4th and 7th mode of melodic minor - that was love at first sight!

[gingerjazz]

I once saw John eheridge play a fretless guitar but he only played it for one tune,and it was wierd.

[JohnW400]

@michalsorg

I'm glad this course of study is working for you and I hope it brings you what you are looking for.

Regarding Playing D minor and Eb minor, I'll bet you a pint that if You asked Freddy Hubbard about this the answer you'll get is that the fastest way to move outside is to play up or down a 1/2 step from the scale.

This also works taking a pattern and moving it up or down following the whole tone or symetrical scales for example.

That idea was around long before I learned it back in 1979.


IMO you're making things way too difficult.

Take three triads, C D E. and stack them. C E G D F# A E G# B. They work great against a variety of chords but I like it againt a C or Ami.

I can invert the order or what have you but all I did was stack three run of the mill major triads. play them as poly chords , scales etc.

I didn't have to think up any 9 note scales. just three chords.

Simpler is easier

[michaelsorg]

Originally Posted by JohnW400

@michalsorg

I'm glad this course of study is working for you and I hope it brings you what you are looking for.

Regarding Playing D minor and Eb minor, I'll bet you a pint that if You asked Freddy Hubbard about this the answer you'll get is that the fastest way to move outside is to play up or down a 1/2 step from the scale.

This also works taking a pattern and moving it up or down following the whole tone or symetrical scales for example.

That idea was around long before I learned it back in 1979.


IMO you're making things way too difficult.

Take three triads, C D E. and stack them. C E G D F# A E G# B. They work great against a variety of chords but I like it againt a C or Ami.

I can invert the order or what have you but all I did was stack three run of the mill major triads. play them as poly chords , scales etc.

I didn't have to think up any 9 note scales. just three chords.

Simpler is easier

Hi John,
That's a nice combination. You said stack them...did you mean on the piano? Anyway, that's one of my favorite 8-tone scales:
A Dorian Chordal (or Bebop) or
C Lydian Chordal (or Bebop) or
C Tonal Lydian Augmented (tonal - meaning it's got the natural 5th and can be used truly modally, not just a chordal texture like the third mode of melodic minor, most often called Lydian Augmented).

If you add one note, D#, you get what I call the Crystalline Lydian Scale, whose home mode I consider to be the Dorian.

A Crystalline Dorian 9-tone scale: A, B, C, D, D#, E, F#, G, G#
C Crystalline Lydian 9-tone scale: C, D, D#, E, F#, G, G#, A, B

You could also use the major scale contained as the home mode:

G Neapolitan Major 9-tone scale: G, Ab, A, B, C, D, Eb, E, F#

I've posted a few licks of this on my website, unfortunately no audio yet. You'll see how this can be broken down into repeating elements. This is certainly not simple, but beautiful, I think, and worth the trouble of practicing in all keys.

Michael Sorg Music - Music Theory

By the way, I didn't think up any 9-tone scales - they have always existed, just like the 12-tone chromatic scale. I'm just naming and applying them.

As far as matrixes and sidestepping go, some applications and positions are far superior to others. Why? You have to consider all tones used in relation to the chord, it's function, the surrounding harmony, and maybe even the whole tune.

[JohnW400]

||---|---|---|---|---|---|-b-|---|---|---|---|e
||---|---|---|---|---|---|f#-|---|-g#|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|-d-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|g--|---|a--|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|-e-|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-c-|---|---|---|



C E G A D F# G# B E

or any other combination you like for a scale

There 's all kinds of simple things to do. But your inventing sclae sfor things that already exist on their own without having to come up with some sort of 9 note scale to explain things

If you like that idea so much just take the chromatic scale and figure out alt the things you need. It's all basded on numbers and whole steps 1/2 steps and 1 1/2 if you like



Any way, good luck in your study of these systems