two outside chords

[anth202]

I have a progression that is in the key centre of A major except for this bar that goes |Abm Abm Abm G|. Here Abm occurs for 3 of the beats and G for one (more as a passing chord). Since the whole chord progression is quite short (4 bars) I probably need something to cover this section well. I don't know of any modes that allow a minor chord to a major chord by a semitone. What are some options here that are smooth sounding? The song is a kind of ballady but I'm going for a george benson solo approach (i.e. smooth sounding but can sound alittle out). Any ideas?

[fep]

You'd probably get a better answer if you were to show the whole chord progression, with this little snippet it's whatever any one comes up with probably won't work.

I'll roll the dice.

Do a sequence

Amaj7 | Abm7 Gmaj7 |F#m7 Fmaj7 | Bbmaj7 | Amaj7

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I agree. Don't be coy. What are the chords?

[Reg]

If tune is in Amaj , the Abmin to G could be II-subV of rel. Min. F#-. Pretty standard. Amaj7 / Ab-,,G7 / F#-7/. The G7 could be subV of Db7. If you apply Modal interchange principles, the analysis are unlimited. Reg

[anth202]

The chords are:

| A C#m | Abm (G)| D C#m | Bm E | repeat

reg: sorry I don't follow. guess ill have to read up on modal interchange principles.

[Patriots2006]

You can use an Ab melodic Minor Scale for the entire measure. This would give you an outside sound on the G. Think G7 Altered. To me the Abm looks like a substitue for Dm, the two chord going to G, but because it is not a m7 chord you can use the above scale. If you want to treat it as a IIm7 to V7 you can use a Gb Major scale. G being a sub for Db as stated in a previous response.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by anth202

The chords are:

| A C#m | Abm (G)| D C#m | Bm E | repeat

I see a bit of a musical joke here. Abm7 has the same notes as BMaj6 and G is the upper triad of Emin7. If you write those in:

| AMaj7 C#m7 |Bmaj6 Emin7| DMaj7 C#m7 | Bm7 E7 :||

The second and the fourth measure are the same, but with minor and major reversed! And note how every chord in the second part of a measure is a whole step above the following chord. If this is a slow ballad, you could slip a chord or arpeggio etc... in between. So Emin7 DMaj7 becomes EMin7 A7 DMaj7 etc...

EDIT: Or to make it sound a bit outside, use a tritone substitution on this passing chords. For example,

| AMaj7 / C#m7 / |Bmaj6 / Emin7 / | DMaj7 / C#m7 / | Bm7 / E7 / :||

Can be played

| AMaj7 / C#m7 C7 |Bmaj6 / Emin7 Eb7 | DMaj7 / C#m7 C7 | Bm7 / E7 / :||

As Reg points out, you can use higher extensions (6/9, 9th, 13th chords) as well as altered chords (b9,#9,b5,#5). I always assume that's part of the furniture when you're groovin'!

[Reg]

So now ( in Benson style) A13 , C#-7 / Ab-7 , G13#11 /Dmaj9 ,C#-7 / B-9 , E7#9b13. A13 is your I chord, (Blues), C#-7 would sound hipper as C#-7b5, but C#-7 works, is III-7 of A. Ab-7 is nat min. or Phrigian, the G13#11 is bVII so lydianb7. The Dmaj9 or D6/9 etc... is typ turnaround for R&B. So your really just playing a standard I IV V groove , but deceptively delaying the Sub-dominant or IV chord...The Harmonic rhythm is cool. Reg

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Also, I wouldn't call George Benson an outside player. Certainly not on Breezin', On Broadway, This Masquerade... all those sound inside to me, with plenty of bluesy lines. Perhaps that's what you want.

[Reg]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

Also, I wouldn't call George Benson an outside player. Certainly not on Breezin', On Broadway, This Masquerade... all those sound inside to me, with plenty of bluesy lines. Perhaps that's what you want.

I would agree with BDLH Benson is not an outside player... although that's one of the things I dig about him. His solos are one long melodie... I remember back in the days of 6 night gigs, I would catch GB always more than once, CTI, always great bands...up to about 71 or 72, Reg

[keith]

This is an interesting thread for substitutions but I don't follow the transition into the C-7 in the prior threads. Would someone elaborate on that?

Any comments on using the Abdim scale over the 2nd bar to transition into D of the 3rd bar?

[Reg]

Sorry... should have been C#-7...Reg

[Reg]

How would explain using Abdim over Ab- to Gmaj.? Three common tones Ab,D,G and two non,B and Eb, just with triads. That's pretty hard on the ears, unless your picking only some of the notes. Dim always sounds like your searching for the notes...although I hear great players using that set of licks well and they have my respect. Reminds me of Bartock's four tonic system compositions, there interesting but... as I said before sorry about the C-7, forgot the #'s ... (C#-7) Reg

[keith]

Thanks for the reply. I had suggested the Abdim somewhat based on the shared tones but also as a transition into the next bar chromatically from the dim arp. I agree that the dim scale can sound a bit out of place and has a very characteristic sound but I'm always curious to see how much tension in the sound that people will accept.

[anth202]

I tried the Gb major scale and Ab melodic minor scale as Patriots suggested but im not a big fan of the sound. I tried Ab phyrgian over Abm then Gmaj over G which sounds alright. I just dont like that D# over the Ab chord because then it sounds like im playing tonally because I can't seem to shift key centres without it sounding like i am haha. I want it to be something smooth. Ab pentatonic to G pentatonic also sounds alright but yea sounds like tonal playing. any ideas or help would be great? thanks so far for all the suggestions.

[Reg]

Hey anth202... try playing A mixo, a blue version over A to C#-, on the C#- hint at A min pent./ Amaj over Ab-7, G lydb7 or Ador over G / Dmaj over D, Dmixo over C#- / and Bdor. over B- and E, on the E think A blues. It's not what I would call jazz but I play a lot of R&B, funk and blues gigs, they see it as jazzy. You have to play very straight, by that I mean stay in diatonic modes of natural minor and blue notes, Lyd.b7 is like taking it out. Reg

[Bash-O]

Ok guys, looking at the progression, I think this is why the ear accepts it, and how it is functionally.

| A C#m | Abm (G)| D C#m | Bm E | repeat

The 1st bar is obviously diatonic; the movement to Ab- works in two ways: It is very close to vii-7b5 (G#-7b5) and also, the ear accepts roots moving in 5ths.

Root movements in semi-tones are also excepted, hence the movement to G. This is a temporary modulation to G, the movement to it's chord V (D) allows a semitone resolution to chord iii of A (C#-).

Knowing how it functions should tell you which scales/chord extensions to use. E.g. the D chord is functioning as a lydian dominant chord (a dominant chord resolving down a semi-tone).

The G, however, could be one of two things - a straight major(7th) chord or a lydian dominant chord. The second choice exists if you disregard the temporary modulation, and consider it as a chord V substitute - a lydian dominant chord which resolves up a tone. Of course, this is a delayed resolution which comes via the D to C#- movement.

This may be a bit over-complicated for your needs, but I hope it illustrates some of how the harmony functions and why it works.

By the way, this is on the way to being multi-layed harmony.

[anth202]

bash-o:

when you say the abm is close to vii-7b5 does that mean I can play A major over the first 3 chords? Then play straight G major or G lydian dominant over the G chord?

[Bash-O]

Well, not quite. You could just about get away with A Lydian though. Personally, I would probably treat the Ab separately as an arpeggio or Ab Dorian.

You could think of it as - A major, Gb major, G major. (Gb major is the parent scale of Ab dorian).

Or even A major, Ab dorian, A dorian, A major. Where the A dorian is played over the G major (same notes). It will give you a different result as you will resolve onto different notes. Work with the sound and your ear.

Has anyone mentioned arpeggios? I think it was Metheny who mentioned the first thing he did was work on those when approaching a tune. Work from the inside out; improvise with the arpeggio tones, then you can add any passing tones you wish to flesh out the lines. Then maybe think about specific colours involving scales.

[Reg]

Hey anth202...There are many analysis of your progression, most of them suck,( not your progression, the analysis), You can call Amaj I and use ionian, call C#, III- and use phrygian...pretty standard and boring...Ab-,(G#-) would normally be VII-7b5 but through the miracle of modal interchange, very standard in jazz and pop, change VII-7b5 to either nat. or dorian min., as mentioned by others. Sounds like a mistake with out a melody. You can call G either,1) bVIImaj, which would use lydian and call it a type of plagel or sub.dominant type cadence going to D...pretty boring. Or give G a duel function and also call it 2) the subV (of V) of II-V of VI-. Normally would have been G#-7b5 to C#7 / F#-7. The F#- would be VI-7. The G would be the subV of C#7 and become G7, scale normally lydian b7. Now through another miracle termed deceptive resolution or delaying the resolution, you go to D, C#-, B-, E or IV, III-, II- V and finally I, all diatonic in key of A. All this for a lousy set of scale to chord understandings...As I said in previous post above....check it out, it's a much hipper way of playing through the changes and creating a melody. If your melody is harmonically strong, it will act like a harmonic pedal to hold your changes together....Good luck Reg

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

What's the song?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

If you want to go "the other way", you can improvise over:

| A / / / | / / / / | D / / / | E / / / :||

The more elaborate progression will make you sound cool and outside

[On Sugar Hill]

Try thinking of the Abm as G#minor. Then you can use A lydian for that chord. When it gets to the G, I would think like a rock player. When rock players have songs in A and a G chord comes up, they'll play A mixolydian. I would substitue that G for an A7 since it resolves nicely to the D.

[anth202]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I seem to lean towards Ab phygrian to A mixo from Abm to G.