Does this have a name: skating close to the key?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I try to play "over the changes", not simply over the key, but sometimes I stick to the key (either the piece's or the section's key) and tweak a note or two to fit the chord (usually to get the 3rd, 7th or root right).

Example. if the key is C and the chord is as given below, I might play over the indicated scale.

B7: B C D Eb F G A B (Eb becomes the 3rd of the B7)
E7: E F G# A B C D E
A7: A B C# D E F G A
D7: D E F# G A B C D
G7: G A B C D E F G
C7: C D E F G A Bb C
F7: F G A B C D Eb F
Bb7: Bb C D E F G Ab Bb (or play a diminished arpeggio: B-Ab-F-D...)

Is there a name for skating close to the key like this? I feel like I'm reinventing the wheel, but I haven't read about this anywhere. Any other ideas I could use in this setting?

[princeplanet]

Wow, that's economy! While I've read of this kind of approach, I don't know a name for it either, but one thing it ain't is "cheating", cos I think it's probably harder to do this on the fly than it is to just change the pitch collection to suit each chord.

I mean, to some it may seem easy to simply change one note to accommodate a "foreign" chord, but I remember how hard it was for me to simply master changing one note (nat3 to b3) in 5 positions in order to get the MM modes under the fingers. To change notes on the fly requires a LOT of thinking, most peeps would confess that they're not really saying the notes to themselves when they're playing to be thinking "ok, here comes B7 so I'll skip the D and go D# and back to D for the E7 chord but musn't hit the G nat on the run down unless the A7 chord arrives before I get to it....." Or is it just me that can't think that fast?.....

Regardless, I'd wonder if the successive Doms in the cycle would sound cadentially convincing by just changing to the correct 3rd and 7th, surely the other notes help the sense of changing through keys? Otherwise you could only be mindful of 3rds and 7ths and play any other note in between for all chords you come across..... hmmm.... you maybe onto something!

[Gilles]

I've read something similar to that in "The Jazzmaster's Cookbook". The author would use that principle mainly for passing diminished chords (ie take the appropriate mixo and change some notes to get the dim arp come out right.)

Seems like a good way to go.

By the way, the scale you chose for B7 is simply the "altered" scale (aka tritone sub for F7)

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by Gilles

By the way, the scale you chose for B7 is simply the "altered" scale (aka tritone sub for F7)

Yes, I didn't what to start naming all the scales because that would just distract from the main idea.

[Reg]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

I try to play "over the changes", not simply over the key, but sometimes I stick to the key (either the piece's or the section's key) and tweak a note or two to fit the chord (usually to get the 3rd, 7th or root right).

Example. if the key is C and the chord is as given below, I might play over the indicated scale.

B7: B C D Eb F G A B (Eb becomes the 3rd of the B7)
E7: E F G# A B C D E
A7: A B C# D E F G A
D7: D E F# G A B C D
G7: G A B C D E F G
C7: C D E F G A Bb C
F7: F G A B C D Eb F
Bb7: Bb C D E F G Ab Bb (or play a diminished arpeggio: B-Ab-F-D...)

Is there a name for skating close to the key like this? I feel like I'm reinventing the wheel, but I haven't read about this anywhere. Any other ideas I could use in this setting?

Modal interchange, B7 is alt.( 7th degree of molodic Min), E7 is 5th degree of Har. or if you want a name, Phrygian Dominant, A7 is 5th degree of Mol. Min.or Mixo. b13, D7, G7, and C7 all mixo., F7 and Bb7 both 4th degree of MM, Lyd. b7 or Lyd. Dom. There are standard choices for what mode, scale or what ever you want to call your collection of notes, by analysis. Or just use your ear. Reg

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by Reg

Modal interchange, B7 is alt.( 7th degree of molodic Min), E7 is 5th degree of Har. or if you want a name, Phrygian Dominant, A7 is 5th degree of Mol. Min.or Mixo. b13, D7, G7, and C7 all mixo., F7 and Bb7 both 4th degree of MM, Lyd. b7 or Lyd. Dom. There are standard choices for what mode, scale or what ever you want to call your collection of notes, by analysis. Or just use your ear. Reg

Yes, I didn't what to start naming all the scales because that would just distract from the main idea.

[Reg]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

Yes, I didn't what to start naming all the scales because that would just distract from the main idea.

Cool ...so the main idea is modal interchange, or system of changing notes in chords of existing roots. This is a harmonic or vertical practice, are you looking for a melodic or horizontal system to explain your choice of notes? Reg

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I am thinking horizontally, here. I'm not doing anything tricky: just improvising a melody (or play melodically) while trying to balance staying in C with the fact that the current chord is E7.

So you say this is called "modal interchange"? I'm wondering (1) if it has a well-known name, so that I can call it that (I like naming things!) and (2) if there are any other cool related ideas forum members could add (I like cool ideas, too).

[Reg]

Modal interchange is pretty standard in jazz, Key of C; root B would normally be B-7b5, you modal interchange from M.M. and use it's 7th degree root of B with MM collection of notes, Termed Altered. You use same process with, E,A,D etc... Bb would be called something, bVII, V of whatever etc. If you use a cycle type of harmonic motion organization or some type of linear control you can still modal interchange, although the analysis will need to adjusted, I have to run, two gigs. I'll verbalize more later... Reg

[randalljazz]

that is pure ed byrne! he teaches that chord/scale theory is tyrannical, needlessly complicated, not traditional, and often not musical.

(apologies to my friend ed--hope this is not too far off the mark.)

[bako]

When linking any 2 chords we have a choice about whether to emphasize their similarities or their differences.
The approach you are working with is about the common tones and small adjustments and is key centric.
Basically the scale of the key adjusted to accommodate additional chord tones. It is a very streamlined approach to soloing.
I don't have a name for it though.

[fep]

Bigdaddy,

I don't know what it's called, but I really like it.

[Reg]

Modal interchange is pretty standard term and usage in jazz. Your example, Key of C; root B would normally be B-7b5 or locrian, by way of modal interchange, you substitute the B root or 7th degree chord from M.M. and use it's collection of notes, usally termed Altered. You use same process with, E,A,D etc... You can use any scale, mode or harmonic collection of notes for your source of modal interchange chord, obviously you need to be aware of function. There usually is a theoretical or relational system to why we like certain sounds. Bb would be called something, bVII, V of whatever etc. If you use a cycle type of harmonic motion organization or some type of linear control device you can still modal interchange, although the analysis will need to adjusted to determine your pitch collections. Since your using a cycle of down a 5th or up a 4th motion for control of root, 3rd and 7th, your implying cyclical function, but by trying to stay as close to key of C with rest of notes pretty much implies harmonic control, which would be modal interchange. Reg

[fep]

Originally Posted by Reg

Modal interchange is pretty standard term and usage in jazz. Your example, Key of C; root B would normally be B-7b5 or locrian, by way of modal interchange, you substitute the B root or 7th degree chord from M.M. and use it's collection of notes, usally termed Altered. You use same process with, E,A,D etc... You can use any scale, mode or harmonic collection of notes for your source of modal interchange chord, obviously you need to be aware of function. There usually is a theoretical or relational system to why we like certain sounds. Bb would be called something, bVII, V of whatever etc. If you use a cycle type of harmonic motion organization or some type of linear control device you can still modal interchange, although the analysis will need to adjusted to determine your pitch collections. Since your using a cycle of down a 5th or up a 4th motion for control of root, 3rd and 7th, your implying cyclical function, but by trying to stay as close to key of C with rest of notes pretty much implies harmonic control, which would be modal interchange. Reg

Reg,

I think your missing Biddaddy's point.

You both may get to the same collection of notes but Bigdaddy is getting there with a completely different and much easier thought process.

Which is: just play the notes of a C scale and alter whichever tones are needed to fit the chord in question... i.e. E7, use a C scale but change the G to a G#... very simple thought process. (He doesn't care if that so happens to be the 5th mode of harmonic minor)

[Reg]

Hey Randall... How goes. I don't think it's that complicated... If your playing over a II-V,I. and the I is I-maj7. but you don't about M.M. or H.M. and decide to just leave out a couple of notes that don't sound right...that's complicated. Trial and error does work, ( except at gigs) but who has that much time. As we're all aware there are only so many notes and in the majority of jazz, only so many systems that those pitches are organized into, which implies a limited number of possible .... anyway call it common tones or what ever works so you can explain what your hearing and playing. Anyone ever listen to Alexander Skriabin ( Scriabin), Music became a divine, mystical experience... notes were related to colors, I really dig his later compositions, op. 67, 72 and 74. Reg

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Favourite colour: blue

[Goofsus4]

BigDaddy, I think I use this concept quite a lot, if I understand what you are saying. But I certainly am not thinking "modal interchange."

For instance, if a section is in the key of C and I'm playing over the G7, I visualize the G7 arp sitting inside the C major scale surrounded by tensions such as the b9, #5, etc. I just select my line from those notes. I never play a scale over a chord to begin with, so it's a pretty easy way for me to look at things. I know a lot of scales and modes theoretically, by their intervallic forumula, but I don't even play them as such. I know that mixolydian is 1,2,3,4,5,6,b7 but I wouldn't play it as a scale. I would tend to be looking at it as the arp 1,3,5,b7 then I might include the 2 or the 6 in my line, but to me they'd just be "additional notes" not "mixolydian mode."

As a result of learning this way, I don't think "play the F major 7 arp over the Dm7 to get a Dm9 sound." I would tend to look at that as just playing C major scale notes that correspond to Dm7 notes (5,b7,b3) and adds the 9.

Of course, I'm not thinking about any of that crap at all, I just know what that line will sound like because I've played it so many times.

[Reg]

Hey gang... I'm from the same school... when I play, I just play what I hear, or think I hear, I don't think about the crap either. And I have melodic concepts that I personally like, trial and error helps me come up with my versions of which make me distinct as a player, ( I didn't say good ). But when BigDaddy asks for name of skating close to the key, I'm not playing so I try and explain what and why as simple as I can, with out saying it sounds good so it is... There's not a lot of new material around, I'm not creating just trying to understand and pass it on... Reg

[Goofsus4]

Reg, just in case you were reacting to my comments - I did not mean to demean the term modal exchange. I realized you were just helping to explain what was going on musically when BDLH is doing what he's doing.

I meant that I use this concept myself, but just because that I visualize the fretboard that way, not because I actually have thought about it from a theoretical standpoint.

Crap is a loaded term and I shouldn't have used it, anyway. Understanding the complexities of harmony is anything but "crap."

[Reg]

Hey Goofsus4... It's all cool... were all trying to understand and pass it on. I dig reading your posts... Part of my problem is that I'm as comfortable hearing music visually on paper as I am playing... so I tend to get theoretical when writing, and don't always think as a guitar player, I'm working on it.
Reg

[bako]

Looking at the relationship between the C major scale and the related secondary dominants.

A7 Dm (V7 of II)
ABCDEFG------1 2 #9 4 5 b13 b7
C# optional

B7 Em (V7 of III)
BCDEFGA------1 b9 #9 4 b5 #5 b7
D# optional

C7 F (V7 of IV)
CDEFGA(B)-------1 9 3 4 5 6 (7)
Bb necessary for dominant sound

D7 G (V7 of V)
DEFGABC--------1 2 #9 4 5 6 b7
F# optional

E7 Am (V7 of VI)
EFGABCD--------1 b9 #9 4 5 b13 b7
G# optional

[randalljazz]

Originally Posted by Reg

Hey Randall... How goes. I don't think it's that complicated... If your playing over a II-V,I. and the I is I-maj7. but you don't about M.M. or H.M. and decide to just leave out a couple of notes that don't sound right...that's complicated. Trial and error does work, ( except at gigs) but who has that much time. As we're all aware there are only so many notes and in the majority of jazz, only so many systems that those pitches are organized into, which implies a limited number of possible .... anyway call it common tones or what ever works so you can explain what your hearing and playing. Anyone ever listen to Alexander Skriabin ( Scriabin), Music became a divine, mystical experience... notes were related to colors, I really dig his later compositions, op. 67, 72 and 74. Reg

what?

just passing on previous encounter with what the op referred to. (modal interchange is a very specific concept--if you apply it to any notes outside of the key, the meaning becomes diluted.)

if you are not familiar with the concepts of dr. byrne, you are in for a treat. search for his extensive posts over at aaj, or at his own site. he is a heavyweight.

[Reg]

Hey Randalljazz...thanks for info... yes Ed is great Tb player and arranger/composer etc... I'm very familiar aaj and with traditional modal interchange and how the concept applies to jazz etc...my comment to you earlier was that it's not needlessly complicated, MI helps to understand why some non traditional progressions sound consonant to the ear. My example of II-V/I-, was an attempt at a metaphor. The point was.... when your not aware of a theoretical concept and try to manufacture an explanation with out enough information... now that's complicated.
When you talk about jazz in 19th century or earlier theory, it all becomes somewhat diluted. I was simply trying to help BDLH be aware of a pretty standard explanation of where and why his choice of scales applied to chords in a chord progression sound good to his ear.
Your a great source of info. at this sight, but sometimes it appears that members appear to approach theory as if it will magically dull your creativity or worse yet ... Sorry if my metaphor sucked... Reg

[Stringbean]

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

I try to play "over the changes", not simply over the key, but sometimes I stick to the key (either the piece's or the section's key) and tweak a note or two to fit the chord (usually to get the 3rd, 7th or root right).

Example. if the key is C and the chord is as given below, I might play over the indicated scale.

B7: B C D Eb F G A B (Eb becomes the 3rd of the B7)
E7: E F G# A B C D E
A7: A B C# D E F G A
D7: D E F# G A B C D
G7: G A B C D E F G
C7: C D E F G A Bb C
F7: F G A B C D Eb F
Bb7: Bb C D E F G Ab Bb (or play a diminished arpeggio: B-Ab-F-D...)

Is there a name for skating close to the key like this? I feel like I'm reinventing the wheel, but I haven't read about this anywhere. Any other ideas I could use in this setting?

hmmm, this is really interesting for me. thanks

[Goofsus4]

Originally Posted by Goofsus4

I never play a scale over a chord to begin with,

I know quoting myself is a bit odd, but I've been thinking about this statement I made because it's related to BDLH's approach I think.

I don't play scales over chords, but I DO use scales to organize notes and chords on the fretboard as I play. Correct me if I'm wrong BDLH, but isn't that what in underpinning your method here, i.e. it's easier to use the C major scale as the basic interstate highway running through the key of C land, but you can still take off ramps to visit various towns along the way. You do that by tweaking the scale degrees to turn them into the appropriate chord tones for chords that don't strictly fit the diatonic harmonization of the C major scale.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by Goofsus4

I know quoting myself is a bit odd, but I've been thinking about this statement I made because it's related to BDLH's approach I think.

I don't play scales over chords, but I DO use scales to organize notes and chords on the fretboard as I play. Correct me if I'm wrong BDLH, but isn't that what in underpinning your method here, i.e. it's easier to use the C major scale as the basic interstate highway running through the key of C land, but you can still take off ramps to visit various towns along the way. You do that by tweaking the scale degrees to turn them into the appropriate chord tones for chords that don't strictly fit the diatonic harmonization of the C major scale.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. I'm not playing three octave scales up and down the neck! Originally, I was thinking of the situation where you try to make up a new melody on the fly, but keep it more-or-less in C. I know you can analyze any one clutch of notes as the Transmogrian hyper-locrian mode, but that misses the point entirely.

[Reg]

Do you have a name for tweaking pitches, or a system or explanation of why the notes you tweak sound good to your ear, or do your choices stem from conditioning rather than inherent inclinations. I do like your term Transmogrian hyper-locrian...way cool.
Modal interchange started from the custom of substitution of chords from the parallel minor or major in traditional tonal harmony, pre-Bach. Modern use of that principle of mode change was extended to embrace harmonies on all scale degrees and in all modes. Every chordal structure became available on every scale degree through substitution of mode (modal interchange), and wasn't subject to restrictions of chromatic alteration from traditional tonal harmony.( old classical and earlier voice leading and root motions of 4th or 5th prescribed and accepted harmonic progressions).
The use of MI accelerated during Romantic period,( Debussy, Ravel). Combined with another system of tonal organization from early 1900's termed Parallelism, helped explain why some chromatic alteration sounded tonal, or at least acceptable. When you hear those constant structure triads in pop or rock ...there you go.
Western music is built on very physical principles, (acoustics). There are many explanations to anything... Modal interchange has been around for four centuries. Check out "The Diatonic Modes in Modern Music", John Vincent, around 1974, "Techniques of Twentieth Century Composition", by Leon Dallin, don't know the year, it's older. There are tons more but I'm trying to keep this simple. I do understand these principles there not complicated.
Just a note , guitar is not the greatest instrument to try and understand music on, is kind of like tunnel vision. Reg

[fep]

Hey Reg,

I remember in my music theory that I loved the chapter that explained 'Modal Borrowing'. It turned on my lights in my head.

For those that don't know; Modal Borrowing is using chords from another related mode in your composition.

For instance let's say you are in C maj. Your diatonic chords are

C Dm Em F G Am Bhalfdim

The chords from C harmonic minor are:

Cm Dhalfdim Ebaug Fm G7 Abmaj Bdim

So the usage of this principal is that if you use one of those C harmonic minor chords in your C major composition you are using Modal borrowing.

The tune A Child is Born... I loved the sound of those 1st two chords that repeat several times. I didn't like that I didn't have a framework for understanding it though. Now I do.

Bbmaj7 Ebm/Bb Bbmaj7 Ebm/Bb

That's modal borrowing, i.e. borrowing the Ebm or the iv chord from the parallel minor key.

So Reg, I got sidetracked from my question...

Is modal interchange another name for modal borrowing?

[Reg]

Hey fep...from your explanation yes, I don't think I've heard that term, but maybe it's a version of. I first started hearing the term modal interchange in early 70's, maybe 68 or 69 relating to jazz. Basically the same chords but with different set of diatonic harmonic values. As I said you can find references to modal harmony centuries ago. In jazz I've not heard the term modal borrowing, but is very understandable and I'm thrilled to here someone explain what they mean in musical terms...Thanks Reg

[Reg]

Hey check out any W. Shorter tune... usually use of modal interchange. Thanks Reg