Recommend advanced theory books?

[blis]

Hi, new here. Been learning about jazz for about 8 months now. Loving it.

But I've gotten to the point where all the books I look at are just talking about the same stuff.

I've read the 'Complete Jazz Guitar' books by Jody Fisher, his 'Jazz Guitar Harmony' book, 'Exploring Jazz Guitar' by Phil Capone and a couple of other similar books that escape my memory right now.

I'm looking for the most advanced theory books you know of. I want to really understand why and how things work.

For example, I'm mainly into chord melody arangements, and other than the common subs I've seen in books, I'm left just trying random chords that share some notes. I'd like to understand why some work and some dont. I understand about notes clashing but theres obviously much more going on than I'm aware of.

I want to understand everything and I can see theres some really knowledgable people here. All suggestions appreciated. Doesnt need to be for guitar.

[jeffstocksmusic]

I am going to be honest Blis, your post is somewhat confusing. If you have read Jody's books, then you should know why things 'work' or 'don't' (diatonically speaking) for the most part. He covers a lot of ground with many interesting concepts.

Diatonic harmony is diatonic harmony. Standard chord subs are standard chord subs. It is the basis for much of the standard jazz repertoire and much of the classical language. Cycle progressions, etc are what they are. You should have a very firm grasp on these concepts if you have studied those books in depth and not need advanced books to answer 'why'. At 8 months, I am extremely impressed that you have grasped all of that information. It can often takes years of intense study, transcription, performance, etc. I am going on 15 years and still work on basic triads daily! Poweful little devices. Just ask George Van Eps. Or Kurt Rosenwinkel.

If you are talking about advanced concepts, you might need to be more specific. Do you need more voicings? Improv concepts? Chord melody strategies? Do you want to learn about counterpoint? Classical music forms? Composition? Ear training? There are tons of books in all of those areas that would probably be very beneficial.

[timscarey]

The way I hear it, there are two possible scenarios (one more likely than the other)

The less likey is that you actually do understand this stuff and you just need more. I will suggest 2 books.

Paul Hindemith "the craft of musical composition" and Jim Knapp "Jazz Harmony"
both will require that you have mastrered diatonic harmony, can read both clefs quickly and accurately, and have/play a little piano.

The more likey scenario is that you totally skipped about 4 years of music theory and don't really understand things like keys, the circle of fifths, voiceleading, common chord progressions, etc... IM NOT PUTTING YOU DOWN, this is very common. WHen you start with jazz guitar books, that always happens.

I would suggest "Tonal Harmony" or any other undergaduate theory text to get you in tune with the fundementals.

Besides, that's all you really need anyway, the advanced stuff is just harmonic technique, nothing new.

[blis]

I think I understand keys. Its just about the chords/notes that belong to the scale right? I spend a good month exploring different ways to change key before I got into jazz.

I know what the circle of fifths is but I never understood whats so special about it or why when you make them all dominant your ear still wants to resolve to the key you originally started in when you go through them all. I would really like to know why certain notes in a chord pull towards others. Is it just what our ears are accustomed to or is there more to it?

Voice leading is just moving between chords who's voicings share notes right? For a smoother transition?

I havent studied common chord progressions much.

Except for 'exploring jazz guitar', the books I've read just have a lot of, 'you can do this' or 'you can do that' or 'this is done a lot in jazz', but they very rarely truly explain why these things work.

I'm just the sort of person that really needs to fully understand how things work.

If theres four years worth of theory out I really want to learn it. I just dont know what to look for. I've been in prison since 2007 and I got a guitar around christmas 08. Got into jazz about 8 months ago. So I've had a hell of a lot of free time to study and practice. I'm in an open prison now so they let me out on home leave once a month. I dont have a guitar here and I dont have internet access there. Kind of annoying.

I'd forgotten about tonal harmony. I remember hearing about it on a show about some composer dude and thinking it sounded cool. Must look into it

Sadly they wont let me have a piano in jail as well as a guitar but I'll have a look at the books you mentioned. I cant read a bass cleff at all yet but I spend an hour on sight reading the treble cleff every day(I bought a book by david oaks)

Lately I've mainly been going through my fake book coming up with chord melody arrangements. They usually sound pretty bland though. I didnt like Jody Fisher's 'Mastering Chord Melody'. Again there was a lot of examples and very little explanations of why things worked. I found I learned more just from trying to analyse Barry Galbraiths arrangements.

To be honest I really should spend a lot more time on my technique instead of arranging and studying and stuff but I get bored without new things. I think I'll probably never be what I would consider good at the guitar(my sense of rythm is off) but I really enjoy playing jazz. Just wish I understood how to find those crazy extended substitutions that make make a song sound super jazzy.

[jeffstocksmusic]

Blis,

I think I get what you are saying now. It is a valid question. The book I continue to turn to is Walter Piston's book on Harmony. It covers a lot of ground, but deals w/ the subject directly. I have found it useful.

Books specific to jazz would be either of Ted Greene's books on harmony -- Chord Chemistry and Modern Chord Progressions, Vol 1. They are wicked dense with information but if you take it in bite-sized pieces, you will gain so much. You can also check out his site for TONS of arrangements, chord studies, etc...all for free. For chord melody, it got no better in my book.

TedGreene.com - The Legacy Of Ted Greene Lives On

[blis]

Thanks they sound like they should be helpful.

Reading up on some of the things both of you have mentioned makes me realise what I really wish I could do is go and study music at university.

I've found some books on amazon about counterpoint and tonal harmony and stuff that look facsinating but they seem to be for people that have studied classical music for years.

I guess I should stop looking for new stuff so much and just put in the time it takes to internalise all the stuff I've learned about so far. I'm just so damn impatient and it takes so long to get good at jazz!

[bako]

Complete Book of Harmony, Theory & Voicing By Bret Willmott

Look on google books at preview to see what you think.

Doesn't exactly explain the why but has quantity of the what and how.

[blis]

That google books thing is awesome!

Man theres so many cool things on the internet I dont know about.

Thanks mate.

[artcore]

You won't master Ted greenes book in a month or a year..If you do tell us
where to buy your CD's...I find myself falling into cord ruts also, good time
to check out Teds books...Check out the very many Utube vids and you will see how many ways you can play a cord melody...if that's your thing.
You may have to get a job, that will cut into your playing time..Also keep
in mind in cord melody playing..any cord..that sounds good can be used..
don't get hung up on the theory..Yes, it takes a long time..

[\m/ Mad Metal Mage \m/]

This might be bad advice, but if you REALLY want to learn...go to school...even if you don't do a jazz degree, maybe take a couple of music theory courses, and some jazz theory courses too. I think it is valuable to have both jazz and classical background. And if you rrrreally want to learn about "advanced" books...then some arranging books I'd recommend are from Berklee Press...BUT you should learn the foothills foundation before climbing the mountain.