Melodic Minor Modal Chord Progressions

[Serhat Dogu]

Hi everyone,
At the moment it is easy to find a document explaining the modes and it is easy to understand the scales and regarding chords for every mode.
For example the fifth mode of melodic minor (jazz minor ) is mixolydian b6 and we use dominant 13 chord over it .. Any dominant with a flatted 6 suits to the scale ...

Now the question comes ... What is the chord progression that will sound like a mixolydian b6 or other modes of melodic minor ???

My solution is that : assume that the TONE is D melodic minor.
Take 4th and 5 th degrees chords : G7 and A7 (or A9 ) put the fifth note as pedal of those chords . G7/A- A9/A --> those two will tell you to play A mixolydian b6 over them which is the 5th mode of D melodic minor,that is mixolydian b6...

The other modes are same ... Take 4th and 5th chords of the melodic minor... Take the pedal note from one of the degrees . Result is the modal chord progression of that degree.....

Is there any different idea about melodic minor modal chord progressions ???? What can be the system according to you ?
And if you know a book explaining modal chord progressions please let me know ... (except Frank Gambale's DVD explaining 7 modes of major scale . )

[John Curran]

Originally Posted by Serhat Dogu

Hi everyone,
At the moment it is easy to find a document explaining the modes and it is easy to understand the scales and regarding chords for every mode.
For example the fifth mode of melodic minor (jazz minor ) is mixolydian b6 and we use dominant 13 chord over it

Technically the diatonic V chord in MM would be V7b13.

Originally Posted by Serhat Dogu

Now the question comes ... What is the chord progression that will sound like a mixolydian b6 or other modes of melodic minor ???

Basically any chord progression that is in melodic minor. This can be hard to define in some situations as MM harmony can often be fleeting and temporary, moving between MM and other minor or even major key centers.

Some of the tip off chords that imply MM harmony can be minor(maj7) chords, major 7th#5 chords, susb9 chords, and sometimes altered dominant chords.

Originally Posted by Serhat Dogu

Is there any different idea about melodic minor modal chord progressions ???? What can be the system according to you ?
And if you know a book explaining modal chord progressions please let me know ... (except Frank Gambale's DVD explaining 7 modes of major scale . )

The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine.

john

[timscarey]

ahhh what the hell....

MM modes and corresponding chord types (in my head, to be used by choice for the desired sound)

1st Mode: min6, min(Maj7), minor triad

2nd mode: min7, min6, sus4b9, 13b9

3rd mode: Maj7(b5), Maj7(#5)

4th mode: any dom 7 chord with natural or flat 5, major triad

5th mode: I personally never think in this mode, but I guess I'd use it for a b13 chord, maybe.

6th mode: min7(b5)

7th mode: #9#5 (alt) chords, min7(b5), all sorts of dominant chords

The symbols in bold represent chords where I wouldn't immediatley think to play melodic minor, but may decide to if the "melodic minor notes" where prominent in the harmonic flow.

A really good book on this topic is "Jazz Harmony" by James Knapp.
Jim Knapp Orchestra: Books & Scores

It reads like a math book but is by far the most in depth modal theory I have ever come across, unfortunatley, it's $40.

[Reg]

Originally Posted by Serhat Dogu

Hi everyone,
At the moment it is easy to find a document explaining the modes and it is easy to understand the scales and regarding chords for every mode.
For example the fifth mode of melodic minor (jazz minor ) is mixolydian b6 and we use dominant 13 chord over it .. Any dominant with a flatted 6 suits to the scale ...

Now the question comes ... What is the chord progression that will sound like a mixolydian b6 or other modes of melodic minor ???

My solution is that : assume that the TONE is D melodic minor.
Take 4th and 5 th degrees chords : G7 and A7 (or A9 ) put the fifth note as pedal of those chords . G7/A- A9/A --> those two will tell you to play A mixolydian b6 over them which is the 5th mode of D melodic minor,that is mixolydian b6...

The other modes are same ... Take 4th and 5th chords of the melodic minor... Take the pedal note from one of the degrees . Result is the modal chord progression of that degree.....

Is there any different idea about melodic minor modal chord progressions ???? What can be the system according to you ?
And if you know a book explaining modal chord progressions please let me know ... (except Frank Gambale's DVD explaining 7 modes of major scale . )

Hey man the best way to understand Molodic Min. is to take the time to write out the scale and all chords built starting on each degree, (all 7 notes for each degree). Look at the intervallic relationships and how they resolve. here's an ex. of Dom. function or resolution; A molodic minor, the V chord; E7b13 (rest of chord tones are natural) the primary resolution is the 3rd & 7th tri-tone, G# and D resolving to A and C ( typ. V-I, in this case Imin.) what gives the m.m. a different sound is the 2nd tri-tone; F# and C which can resolve a couple ways, I like going to G# and C ...yada yada. Anyway because of the different notes in M.M. you get different resolutions, their implied, even if they don't happen, or your ears doesn't hear them yet. It doesn't take that long to do, and it will definitely help hip your ears. As always it takes a while on your axe... give it a try, if you need more info. let me know...Reg

[Serhat Dogu]

Hi Mr Reg . what you have suggested is already mentioned and there is nothing new you added. And I see that my question is not understood exactly..I suggest an idea about the hearing/voicing/perception of melodic minor modes and ask for what you think about the system I use..... thanks for all friendly replies.... Best regards..

[Reg]

Originally Posted by Serhat Dogu

Hi Mr Reg . what you have suggested is already mentioned and there is nothing new you added. And I see that my question is not understood exactly..I suggest an idea about the hearing/voicing/perception of melodic minor modes and ask for what you think about the system I use..... thanks for all friendly replies.... Best regards..

What I tried to imply is, (sounds like you understand how intervals typically resolve.) What makes fifth degree of molodic, or V7b13 different from any other modal sound is the two tri-tones. A molodic Min., E7b13; F#-C resolving to G#-D, or the F#-C resolving to G#-B, both examples imply Molodic min. 5th degree or what you called mixolydian b6. Your method of implying Molodic modal harmony seems like it works well for dominant implications, but when applied to tonic, sub-dom or sub-dom minor resolutions.... it seems like your implying molodic minor melodically, but what are the resolutions to imply the other modes harmonically? I can't hear, for example bIIImaj. by playing 4th and 5th chords from Imin. over bIII root , it implies molodic minor but I don't hear the major or tonic modal sound of bIIImaj7#5, it still sounds like dominant V chord. It's a cool approach and I'll check it out a little deeper, I dig new approaches, if you would explain it a little more, I'm slow... would be cool Reg

[timscarey]

Originally Posted by Serhat Dogu

Is there any different idea about melodic minor modal chord progressions ???? What can be the system according to you ?
And if you know a book explaining modal chord progressions please let me know ... (except Frank Gambale's DVD explaining 7 modes of major scale . )

So, after thinking about this for a while, I have some thoughts on the subject.

When harmonizing a pentatonic melody...

Lets use G major Pentatonic as our melodic device, all of the chords diatonic to the keys of G, and C are available as Diatonic harmonies to this scale (essentially) but there are "melodic minor" options as well.

you could use an Ebmaj(b5) in the chord progession to imply the lydian augmented sound

you could use a B7 and get an altered sound

you could use an Amin7(b5) and get a Locrian +2 sound.

the possibilties are endless, you just have to address the "melodic minor note" for each chord. for example, B natural on the A half dim and the Eb Maj7b5. you can get super creative with it. I like to throw the "Melodic minor" chords in among chords from the possible parent scales.. (G and C)

GMaj7-Dmin7-Amin7(b5)-B7-Em7-EbMaj7(b5)-E7-Am7-D9 (Example changes to a G Maj Pent melody) bold = (melodic minor)

With this approach the trick is pentatonic melody (keeping the melody in one or two pentatonic scales)

Granted, it's not a stand alone melodic minor chord progression, but I feel like in most cases, the element of melody is essential for getting that melodic minor sound.

[bako]

Tim,

Let me know if I understand this correctly.

Creating melodies from a small note collection (in this case G pentatonic) that derive from multiple sources and then mixing and matching their collective harmonies with musical discretion.

G pentatonic:
G major I
D major IV
C major V
D mel min IV
C mel min V

From what scale does the E7 come from?

Thanks

[JohnW400]

The fastest way to see harmony in any scale ia to submit it to "back cycling"

CMa7 -Fma7 - Bmi7b5- Emi7 - Ami7 - Dmi7 - G7

Then see how many standards fit this pattern.


So for MM in a

AmiMa7 D7 G#mi7b5 Cma7 F#mi7b5 Bmi7 E7.

[timscarey]

Originally Posted by bako

Tim,

Let me know if I understand this correctly.

Creating melodies from a small note collection (in this case G pentatonic) that derive from multiple sources and then mixing and matching their collective harmonies with musical discretion.

G pentatonic:
G major I
D major IV
C major V
D mel min IV
C mel min V

From what scale does the E7 come from?

Thanks

Yeah basically, I just don't think of it that way. I let the melody guide and keep in mind my melodic minor options (as well as the diatonic ones), The E7 comes from the key of A but all of the notes in a G major pent scale work and might imply a #9 which is where I would be thinking melodic minor. It's like the simple melody becomes the key center and the actual harmonies take on more of a melodic role due to the shifting of "Keys" and usage of melodic minor phrases.

I think this way of thinking comes from being a bass player and always looking for interesting root choices and reharm options. and my love of catchy melodies : )

[Reg]

Hey Tim... I always dig what you have to say. Your changes show where one could use MM, but I thought (serhat Dogu) was looking for chord progressions that imply the Modes of MM. Ex; G-6/// l A-6/// l G-6/// l A-6/ Bbmaj7#5/ l E-7b5/// l A7b13/// l D-maj7/// l Ab13#11///l Implying GMM; I-/ II-/ I-/ II-,bIIImaj#5/ VI-7b5( used as duel function to become (II-7b5 - V7b13) of modulation to D-maj7, also MM but temporary key of Dmm, and subV, ( Ab13#11) of original GMM, and would go back to GMM. Could be 1st A of simple AABA tune. Last chord, Ab13#11 could be pivot chord 2nd time around to go to B section etc... anyway the entire section implies MM's. Hey man I go to Portlant at least once a year, usually play somewhere... would be cool to hook up, or if you you come to SF area, come sit in on a gig etc... Reg

[timscarey]

Originally Posted by timscarey

Granted, it's not a stand alone melodic minor chord progression, but I feel like in most cases, the element of melody is essential for getting that melodic minor sound.

For sure Reg, Dig the progression you presented, which does in fact imply melodic minor throughout.

But I feel like in most cases, the melodic minor sound is dependent on the usage of just one note as opposed to another, so in a solo situation it kind of becomes a mixture of the melodic lines being used and the piano/guitar voicings.

Me personally, I like to "touch on" that sound more than dwell on it. well....I guess it depends on the tune.

But yeah, for sure, I come down to the bay area about 2 or 3 times a year, I'll let you know next time I'm down there, and hit me up if you make it up north. It would be cool to actually see someone from this board in person.

[604bourne123]

Originally Posted by JohnW400

The fastest way to see harmony in any scale ia to submit it to "back cycling"

CMa7 -Fma7 - Bmi7b5- Emi7 - Ami7 - Dmi7 - G7

Then see how many standards fit this pattern.


So for MM in a

AmiMa7 D7 G#mi7b5 Cma7 F#mi7b5 Bmi7 E7.

works and sounds great

[Reg]

Originally Posted by JohnW400

The fastest way to see harmony in any scale ia to submit it to "back cycling"

CMa7 -Fma7 - Bmi7b5- Emi7 - Ami7 - Dmi7 - G7

Then see how many standards fit this pattern.


So for MM in a

AmiMa7 D7 G#mi7b5 Cma7 F#mi7b5 Bmi7 E7.

Hey John... I'm not sure I understand your concept of "back cycling", I dig the name. It seems your using root motion, ( V-I) to imply dom. function of each chord tone to be almost like a temporary I chord, ( except the G#-7b5 to Cmaj7#5 ), anyway root motion is a great way to imply function but the actual function, resolution of intervals is just as strong, if not more so. I can't keep my ears from hearing A nat. minor with the Cmaj7 at the end. I'm pretty hip about cycles, and it's a great way to get somewhere, but I don't understand the modal implications of MM implied. Sorry man, If you could pass a little more information my way, Thanks Reg

[Reg]

Originally Posted by timscarey

For sure Reg, Dig the progression you presented, which does in fact imply melodic minor throughout.

But I feel like in most cases, the melodic minor sound is dependent on the usage of just one note as opposed to another, so in a solo situation it kind of becomes a mixture of the melodic lines being used and the piano/guitar voicings.

Me personally, I like to "touch on" that sound more than dwell on it. well....I guess it depends on the tune.

But yeah, for sure, I come down to the bay area about 2 or 3 times a year, I'll let you know next time I'm down there, and hit me up if you make it up north. It would be cool to actually see someone from this board in person.

Hey Tim...Yea...to all you said...I'm just trying to teach basics about modal concepts yada yada... A lot of players don't have all the theoretical bullshit and I'm just trying do my part... Cool, I'll be up in April or May... Reg

[JohnW400]

You go back through the cycle of 4ths

I VI vii iii vi ii V I
C F B E A D G C

Each ones a fourth away.

Like the B section to all those Bop tunes A7-D7-G7-C7. All are a 4th away.

[bako]

Diatonic Progression Cycles

I---II---III---IV---V---VI---VII---I-----------2nds
I---VII---VI---V---IV---III---II---I-----------7ths

I---III---V---VII---II---IV---VI---I-----------3rds
I---VI---IV---II---VII---V---III---I-----------6ths

I---IV---VII---III---VI---II---V---I-----------4ths
I---V---II---VI---III---VII---IV---I-----------5ths

These can be applied to any of the 7 tone scales
Major
Melodic Minor
Harmonic Minor
Harmonic Major

It is good to know what harmonic material a scale can generate.
These can be applied to intervals, triads, sevenths, ninths, elevenths, thirteenths as well as structures built in 4ths and all manner of intervals.

Progressions can be made from these cycles in any combination.

Music will often move melodically and harmonically beyond the scope of any one scale but that is perhaps another topic.

[Reg]

Originally Posted by bako

Diatonic Progression Cycles

I---II---III---IV---V---VI---VII---I-----------2nds
I---VII---VI---V---IV---III---II---I-----------7ths

I---III---V---VII---II---IV---VI---I-----------3rds
I---VI---IV---II---VII---V---III---I-----------6ths

I---IV---VII---III---VI---II---V---I-----------4ths
I---V---II---VI---III---VII---IV---I-----------5ths

These can be applied to any of the 7 tone scales
Major
Melodic Minor
Harmonic Minor
Harmonic Major

It is good to know what harmonic material a scale can generate.
These can be applied to intervals, triads, sevenths, ninths, elevenths, thirteenths as well as structures built in 4ths and all manner of intervals.

Progressions can be made from these cycles in any combination.

Music will often move melodically and harmonically beyond the scope of any one scale but that is perhaps another topic.

Great break down "bako", of cycles and how to generate them, and yea you can come up with any system to create a cycle of root motion, inner voices or whatever aspect of harmonic movement you want to control, but I don't see how that defines modality. It will obviously imply a source material, scale or harmonic collection of notes. Modality usually is defined by characteristic interval resolutions and pitches." A central tone to which other tones are related can establish tonality, and the manner in which these other tones are placed around the central tone produces modality". Is there a way for "back cycling" to help define the primary and secondary chords found within the diatonic limits of each mode or the characteristic scale step which produces or implies the flavor of each mode. Help me out with a little more info....I'm trying to see it, I totally dig cycles, there great mechanical way to create harmonic movement. And as you pointed out the use of cycle of 5ths or Dom. resolution, ( tri-tone resolution) is in a ton of jazz standards and bop tunes... latter Reg

[604bourne123]

then add whatever you want is the best I can think of.

[bako]

The Advancing Guitarist book by Mick Goodrick includes 7 modal vamps for Major, Melodic Minor and Harmonic Minor scales.

Modality implies a central tone around which a collection of intervals orbit.
I have generally practiced anything and everything from a scale (including cyclical progressions)
against a pedal tone which allows me to hear the modal intervals in relation to that axis.

[Reg]

Originally Posted by bako

The Advancing Guitarist book by Mick Goodrick includes 7 modal vamps for Major, Melodic Minor and Harmonic Minor scales.

Modality implies a central tone around which a collection of intervals orbit.
I have generally practiced anything and everything from a scale (including cyclical progressions)
against a pedal tone which allows me to hear the modal intervals in relation to that axis.

Good advice...I like the visual of intervals orbit, way cool. I remember Mick back in the early 70's back at Berklee, cool player. We were all young, I think he was in one of Burton's bands...Great you brought up difference between Tonality...central tone to which other tones are related and Modality...manor in which those other tones are placed around( orbiting) the central tone.
Does Mick's book go in to function and resolution? Reg

[bako]

Originally Posted by Reg

Does Mick's book go in to function and resolution? Reg

It is a unique book in some ways. It addresses many different topics with huge doses of philosophical musings and humor. When I was younger it helped me envision the scope of what I was getting into. I still refer back to it from time to time.

The only section I remember that specifically addressed function was where he looked at the many uses
of Cma7 and Cma7+ superimposed over various bass notes. He then created voiced progressions where he used those chords in all those functions. He somewhat joking referred to these progressions as a "harmonic continuity".

The short answer to to your question is mostly no but a little yes.

[Reg]

The short answer to to your question is mostly no but a little yes.

[/quote]

Hey Bako cool... that's the way I remember him. I'll try and pick it up and dig deeper. I like it when musicians write out their approaches... Thanks Reg

[604bourne123]

Metheny playing guitar

[Reg]

Originally Posted by 604bourne123

Metheny playing guitar

Hey bourne ...thanks...I couldn't download vid. where's it from? Would be cool to check out, what year was it from? Thanks Reg

[604bourne123]

Go to U-Tube tool bar-type in Goodrick-Metheny-Video is called-Maestro---- compliments-ricksbatz by the way you have to go through google chrome to get the u-tube tool bar.

[Reg]

Hey Bourn... Thanks...beautiful music...also saw vid. with Jerry Bergonzi, great sax man and even better are the way he explains his approaches to soloing and jazz in general... Thanks man, best...Reg