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Yea thanks Matt, and sorry Christian.... I did say enharmonically spelled and added note chords...
I believe that 99% of the time when one plays a Gbmaj7 b5.... in most Jazz tunes context's.... the chord is #11. I can add anything to any chord and call it whatever I choose, but I wouldn't expect anyone to understand without an explanation. And I generally try and use voicings that are logically organized and I can play and understand. (well)
Part of the problem why many guitarist don't comp well... is they don't understand what chords imply and when creating chord patterns or expanding on what basic charts have notated, getting past just playing random or memorized chords and voicings when comping... well they mix and match references... create that Brown color etc... Disclaimer... no one on this forum.
Ty123.... Expanding sub dominant organization using Chord Patterns that still imply the function....
So expanding subdominant function... is just that. Taking a SD function chord. and expanding.... can be as simple as using the other Diatonic subdominant chord(s). And Yes... using Relative or Parallel applications... or even expanding that application using Modal Interchange can create new chord(s) choices that sill have a reference to the original Subdominant chord. And then taking that expanded chord and creating a Chord Pattern with that new chord as the new Reference is what I'm talking about. There are obviously many more applications for expanding, and the actual Chord Patterns have implications and can also have same process applied.
One way of looking at or understanding is.... the new sub chord(s) or expanded relationship chord(s), can become a Tonal Target. So you can create new relationships with that new Tonal Target. (creating relationships in this situation is just using the new chord as the tonal reference for creating subs etc... It's a micro application within the big picture). So the new Chord becomes The Tonic for a moment.
And Chord Patterns are just standard collections of Chords from existing tunes.... that can be used as One basic tonal reference.
II V's, I IV's, I bVII's, I V's... I VI II V's and all the variations... etc...pick a tune and find a chord pattern that can become One basic Target.
You need to be able to hear and understand how layers of harmonic motion can work simultaneously, and have targeted beginning and ending locations.... Tonal Targets need to work within the big picture. The Shape,(form) and spatial, (attacks and rhythmic), aspects of tune need to be organized and work. This generally becomes very instinctive with practice.... there are only so many choices and basic Harmonic patterns that most tunes use.
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02-09-2018 11:00 AM
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A note about Matt's comments....
I believe Matt is talking about intervallic spacing ... Chords are generally spelled in thirds. But this is a very relative concept, generally using Piano as basic reference and just stacking notes with only a two octave range. Somewhat like living in a bubble.
The range or location of a note only has harmonic labeling aspects in a controlled and limited context. As I mentioned above... the two octave range and generally on piano. C E F# B is the same chord as C E Gb B... what changes the labeling is the Harmonic context. You can take a voicing and notate for trombones both closed or open.... the notes are the same, the location of the note doesn't create the label.
Personally and when arranging for larger ensembles... One generally needs to decide what and where a chord is from harmonically. #11 has established references.... b5 also does... they are not standard.
We could get into this discussion more... but really not that relative for playing guitar. But being aware that generally Gbmaj7 b5 is actually Gbmaj7 #11 is very relative.
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I think there’s a real distinction to be made between exploring voicings and using them in everyday comping.
I mean for an example there’s no doubt in my mind that Peter Bernstein and Lage Lund have played through all the regular drop 2 chords when studying but they have made a choice not to use them.
After all, you can make good use of a few key voicings.
But again that’s not to say you need to necessarily formalise your chord knowledge in this way if you can harmonise a lead line using chords, for instance. I would describe Wes’s chord voicings as idiomatic to the guitar but it was obvious he could do what he needed.
So it’s resources really. In a uni teaching environment I feel it’s important to teach students how to generate their own chord voicings and to explore sounds
The other day i was getting a student at college - not even a jazzer, he likes Radiohead and the Smiths and writes songs - to play through the drop 2/4s. Some of the voicings he really liked, and the interesting thing was they weren’t the ones I did....
That’s where it gets fun for me, creative choices.
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I first studied basic 7th chords in the following way.
Triads and other 3 note structures were my starting reference.
1 3 5
1 b3 5
1 3 #5
1 b3 b5
1 4 5
1 3 b5
To each of these I added a ma7 and a b7 and in the case of diminished bb7 (6)
1 3 5 7 ........... 1 3 5 b7
1 b3 5 7 .......... 1 b3 5 b7
1 3 #5 7 .......... 1 3 #5 b7
1 b3 b5 7 ......... 1 b3 b5 b7 ........... 1 b3 b5 bb7
1 4 5 7 .............. 1 4 5 b7
1 3 b5 7 ............ 1 3 b5 b7
Viewed from this paradigm, ma7b5 and 7b5 appear to be quite real.
Then again, when scales are the starting reference for building chords, you can't help but notice that neither of these chords exists when building structures in 3rds. b5 reveals itself as #4 or #11 with either a natural 5 or #5.
ma7b5 and 7b5 are found all over in charts. b5 tells us a chord, #11 tells us a possible context.
What we play is more important than how we think about something but it can influence the choices we make.
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Another thing - this isn't really harmonic per se but...
Enharmony helps me think of things that don't necessarily spring to mind with the usual channels (maybe because I am dull at music)... For instance.
Cool altered/minor key dominant things
On E7, we can use Fm6 or Fm(maj7)... Of course this belongs to the E altered scale, but it also belongs to the A harmonic minor... By mispelling.
We play an F #2 chord if you like (F G# C and A or E to taste)
So we can play Fmaj7 Fm(maj7) Am(maj7), for instance. All diatonic to A harmonic minor.
Now the movement - take the 1 and lower by a semitone, or... Mispell the leading note (7) as a flat root is kind of a cool move for making interesting movements on the fretboard... Now of course that 'b1' will be heard and function as a 7, but I wouldn't have found that Fm(maj7) in the A harmonic minor by thinking of scales spelled properly.. (others might be less stupid)
The altered scale itself owes it's most common application to enharmony.... Correctly the superlocrian/mode VII melodic minor is (in G):
G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F, or
1 b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7 (or 1 b9 b3 b11 b5 b13 b7)
Which means it actually the parent scale for a Gm7b5 chord. Of course no-one uses it that way, and no-one thinks the fourth note is a flat fourth. Everyone sees it an analyses the scale as:
G Ab A# B Db Eb F
1 b2 #2 b3 b5 b6 b7 (or 1 b9 #9 3 b5 b13 b7)
This is starting to be a theme - thinking of harmony and hearing it might not be the same thing necessarily.... See also the use of bVIIdom7 on IIm7b5 and IV dominant on minor....Last edited by christianm77; 02-09-2018 at 03:27 PM.
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So Gbmaj7 Gbmaj7b5 Dbmaj7
Would be a cool way of voice leading something very common -
Gbmaj7 Ab13(no root) Dbmaj7
Or, with a bass maybe
Ebm9 Ab13 Dbmaj7
Apply to any of your major chord grips and you have a useful movement that can resolve... (Sorry if you already said that Reg, didn't necessarily read through everything you posted, lot of info there.)
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I actually found this quite freeing when I first discovered that most of the time the b5 (really#11) can be melodically combined with nat5.
Originally Posted by bako
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And Schubert - big leap forward in harmony using enharmony....
Say, that German Sixth in the key of C (Ab C Eb F#) looks a lot like a V7 in the key of Db... Screw it, let's modulate....
(Nowadays, that enharmony is so obvious, Jazz musicians write all their augmented sixth chords as dominants and solo on them that way - e.g. Out of Nowhere.... In fact it kind of seems odd there's a separate name for the ones on bVI and bII...)
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Replace the Dbmaj7 with an Fm7 for nice, rootless ii-V-I (Ebm9-Ab13- Dbmaj9). Originally Posted by christianm77
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Has anyone here checked out Brett Willmott's "Complete Book of Harmony, Theory & Voicing"? It's a great guide to voice-leading that's full of the conversion types outlined above by Christian. A pretty weighty tome that can be a hard slog until you're familiar with all the possible enharmonic substitutions. Willmott outlines a series of chord sequences (often containing heavily altered chords) with their upper melodic notes only and you're expected to supply the missing information via related 7th chords in drop 2.
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The next step might be to convert the Gbmaj7b5 to Gb7b5 - Ab7#5 or b13 (depending on which way you swing), no root - for even stronger chromatic voice-leading. Originally Posted by christianm77
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Or Gm(maj7)b5
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Great book. Originally Posted by PMB
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Do you mean Gbm(maj7)b5 = Ab13b9? Tasty and particularly cool when inverted:
Last edited by PMB; 02-09-2018 at 09:26 PM.
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Ok
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Wow this thread has kinda got away from me now ...
You guys are so bright ...
I just wanted a couple of new grips !
My methodology is
I just get a few sounds and mess around with em innit
Its all cool tho of course .... carry on mates
You guys are awesome ... love ya
PS I kinda wish I could change the thread title to
Gbmaj7#11 now !
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Apologies Pingu for helping to take it a bit off track. I think the point most people are making here is that once you start applying simple voicings to lots of different environments and tweaking their various notes to yield new possibilities, static grips will be less important than their harmonic implications. So, yeah you still "get a few sounds and mess around with 'em" but there's a wider context. Challenging as that approach might appear at first, in the end it saves time and gives us the ability to get through lots of tunes with smooth voice-leading and a rich, harmonic palette made up from a relatively small number of chords. Piece of cake, innit?
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Obviously. Originally Posted by pingu
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Hahahahaha Originally Posted by pingu
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Pingu... so you need to start with basic guitar voicings. I use standard Root position voicing with 6th, 5th and 4th strings roots
So basically you end up with chord references based on Roots on 6th, 5th and 4th strings, (you can add 3rd string)
Where I'm going is the guitar is a 12 fret repeating pattern. Those lower string roots cover the instrument. They create a 12 fret repeating pattern. You can make the actual chords or voicings whatever you choose, I've posted the basic voicings I started with before.
After you have the basic chords down.... the voicings you like based on those 3 roots on lower strings.... your free to start developing any type of voicings you want... the roots don't need to be played etc... any inversion whatever. The point is you have a system that is based on the guitar. Your playing the instrument.
What you don't want to do is.... have a collection of unorganized grips, chords that don't have an underlining organization based on the guitar that you then play as the guitar wants you to.
As mentioned by PMB... eventually your going to develop comping styles and approaches for performing. Personally... I don't really think chords that much... I generally play a lead line and voice the harmony below. Different styles require different harmony and different notes and intervals below the lead line. (some style require cowboy chords or simple root position sounds etc...).
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