Diminished scale

[jshevloff]

I need to play an arpeggio / scale for an Ebdim chord. Can anyone tell me the scale degrees please?

Thanks

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I was corrected recently, so I better get this right! The diminished scale goes: whole step, half step, whole step, half step, whole step, half step, whole step, half step:

Eb F Gb Ab Anat B C D Eb

I probably gave plenty of enharmonic names for notes there.

Edit: The diminished or diminished seventh chord is often a substitution for another chord. See what other chords work in that place of the progression.

[jshevloff]

What would the arpeggio be?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

An arpeggio is just when you play the notes of a chord separately, so a C major arpeggio could be:

C-E-G or
C-E-G-C-E or...

or start on a non-root:

E-G-C-E
G-C-E-G ...

Or are you asking what the notes in a diminished chord are?

[randalljazz]

Eb dim 7 arpeggio

Eb-Gb-Bbb(A)-Dbb(C)

more spice with an Eb dimMA7

Eb-Gb-A-D

[c.diminished.scale]

Diminished Scale is whole tone - half tone - whole tone - half tone - etc. etc.

Example: Eb F F# G# A B C D Eb

Diminished Arpeggio is all Minor Thirds - Eb Gb A C Eb

If we were to get technical about the music theory aspects, the notes might be named differently (Gb rather than F#). But that has nothing to do with the way the notes sound. For practical purposes, it doesn't matter if you say F# or Gb.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by c.diminished.scale

Diminished Scale is whole tone - half tone - whole tone - half tone - etc. etc.

Example: Eb F F# G# A B C D Eb

Diminished Arpeggio is all Minor Thirds - Eb Gb A C Eb

If we were to get technical about the music theory aspects, the notes might be named differently (Gb rather than F#). But that has nothing to do with the way the notes sound. For practical purposes, it doesn't matter if you say F# or Gb.

I'm glad we agree and say the same thing!

[timscarey]

I like to think of a diminished scale as a diminished chord with a note added a halfstep below each chord tone. there are tons of arpeggios that can be created from the scale. a straight-up diminished 7th arpeggio from Eb would be Eb, Gb, Bbb(A), Dbb(C).

[franco6719]

Originally Posted by timscarey

I like to think of a diminished scale as a diminished chord with a note added a halfstep below each chord tone. there are tons of arpeggios that can be created from the scale. a straight-up diminished 7th arpeggio from Eb would be Eb, Gb, Bbb(A), Dbb(C).

Hey, that's a good way to think of it, since I am more familiar with the arpeggio patterns than the scales for some reason. I will try this approach.

[Eddie Lang]

Whenever I think of an arpeggio or a scale, I find it much easier to think in degrees. That way, I just remember the patterns and move them according to the key, so the only note I really have to put a name on is the first degree. It also helps me understand better what the heck I am doing. Otherwise my pea size brain would overload. Your mileage may vary.

dim = 1, -3, -5
dim7 = 1, -3, -5, -7

For clarity's sake, the minus "-" sign means flatted or a half step down.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by Eddie Lang

dim = 1, -3, -5
dim7 = 1, -3, -5, -7

For clarity's sake, the minus "-" sign means flatted or a half step down.

I think that way, too, but remember the difference between a "half diminished 7th" and a "diminished 7th":

half-dim7 = 1 b3 b5 b7 (ex: B D F A)
dim7 = 1 b3 b5 bb7 (ex: B D F Ab)

[Eddie Lang]

You're right about the 7th degree!

I usually call the "half-dim7" --> "m7b5". Maybe I should just call it half-dim7...

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by Eddie Lang

You're right about the 7th degree!

I usually call the "half-dim7" --> "m7b5". Maybe I should just call it half-dim7...

They're the same thing. I think most people use both names interchangeably, and without too much thought to it. I think I wrote "half-diminished" since we were already talking about diminished chords.

And I think I use the notation Bmin7b5 and B∅7 interchangeably (usually with a smaller, raised, slashed circle. I'm being keyboard-challenged here). I like the second version because it takes up less room.

[Eddie Lang]

Right again.

Anyway, the key point is that I forgot to write a second minus before 7 in my formula for dim7... Thanks for noticing it right away.

[rlemos]

Originally Posted by jshevloff

I need to play an arpeggio / scale for an Ebdim chord. Can anyone tell me the scale degrees please?

Thanks

Hi, all of the responses in this thread are useful. The direct answer to your question is that there are two diminished scales: (1) whole-step/half-step and (2) half-step/whole-step. However, these scales present two problems: (1) which one should be used and (2) both scales have 8 notes making it a challenge to figure out which ones to use and which ones to avoid.

If you are asking because you want to improvise over diminished chords in actual songs and gigging situations, the following info may be useful. In the latest Just Jazz Guitar issue (Feb 2010), I have an article, "Diminished Scales Not Useful For Diminished Chords". This two-part article (Part 2 will be in the May 2010 issue) is based a chapter in my book, Jazz Guitar Soloing Concepts: A Pentatonic Modal Approach to Improvisation. Essesentially, I show how soloing with diminished scales is too complicated and not very musical. Instead, I show how to handle any diminished chord with either of two simple pentatonic scales. The article (and the book) give an overview of diminished scale theory and then demonstrate how this theory is too complicated to help in an actual gigging situation. Both the article and the book give examples (including sound files) of how my approach works in actual chord progressions. For more info on book, check out my website at:

Jazz Guitar Improvisation Using Pentatonic Chord Scales

Hope this helps.

Ron

[Reg]

There are two Dim Scales beside the Symmetric Dim. ( two versions, you guys covered well). The second one is the 7th degree of Harmonic Minor, sometimes called Ultralocrian or superlocrian bb7. Ex; A Harmonic Min. 7th degree is G#, build chord in 3rds and you get, G# Dim Triad and G#dim7th chord. In that same A Har.Min the V7b9b13, or E7b9b13 is same collection of notes, but has better dom, function. Ex; Gmaj7 / G#dim.7 /A-7 /. play or use E7b9b13 for sub. of G#dim7. The G#dim7 is the E7b9 chord without without the root E. When Dim. chords approach any chord by 1/2 step, you usually can play or solo from the alt. V chord of same target chord, melody permitting etc...
The last one comes from taking for example; Key of C, C#dim 7,( C#, E, G and Bb) add chord tones of implied key, ( D, F, A and C ) . Anyway after going through the rest of process you come up with two more 8 note Dim. patterns;1) 1/2step. 1step, 1/2, 1, 1, 1/2, 1, 1/2. notes would be C#,D,E,F,G,A,Bb,C and pattern 2) 1/2, 1, 1, 1/2, 1, 1/2, 1, 1/2. notes;F#,G,A,B,C,D,Eb,F, from #IVdim. The two patterns cover all the possibilities using that system for creating scale for dim. chords. I don't really like it, but musicians use it. Reg

[derek]

Originally Posted by rlemos

Hi, all of the responses in this thread are useful. The direct answer to your question is that there are two diminished scales: (1) whole-step/half-step and (2) half-step/whole-step. However, these scales present two problems: (1) which one should be used and (2) both scales have 8 notes making it a challenge to figure out which ones to use and which ones to avoid.

If you are asking because you want to improvise over diminished chords in actual songs and gigging situations, the following info may be useful. In the latest Just Jazz Guitar issue (Feb 2010), I have an article, "Diminished Scales Not Useful For Diminished Chords". This two-part article (Part 2 will be in the May 2010 issue) is based a chapter in my book, Jazz Guitar Soloing Concepts: A Pentatonic Modal Approach to Improvisation. Essesentially, I show how soloing with diminished scales is too complicated and not very musical. Instead, I show how to handle any diminished chord with either of two simple pentatonic scales. The article (and the book) give an overview of diminished scale theory and then demonstrate how this theory is too complicated to help in an actual gigging situation. Both the article and the book give examples (including sound files) of how my approach works in actual chord progressions. For more info on book, check out my website at:

Jazz Guitar Improvisation Using Pentatonic Chord Scales

Hope this helps.

Ron

Sat down with the new JJG issue, and began reading your article. I was in Starbucks, so I didn't have my guitar with me to play along with your examples. Will try to do that tomorrow, and maybe have some intelligent input. I did keep up with the discussion of your book on rmmgi. Interesting give and take there. Hope the book sales are going well.

[rlemos]

Originally Posted by derek

Sat down with the new JJG issue, and began reading your article. I was in Starbucks, so I didn't have my guitar with me to play along with your examples. Will try to do that tomorrow, and maybe have some intelligent input. I did keep up with the discussion of your book on rmmgi. Interesting give and take there. Hope the book sales are going well.

Hi, I appreciate you checking out the article. I would really be interested in your feedback after you have had the chance to try out my system on an actual song and/or chord progression. Although I give theoretical background, the system is designed for playing and gigging situations. The book is doing extremely well. However, what is more important to me is putting out information that guitarists can actually use. As I have stated before, if my book ends up on your shelf then I have failed. The JJG articles,YouTube videos, and my website are designed to ensure people who buy the book are "delighted" with their purchase. Thank you once again for your interest and I will look forward to hearing back from you. Best wishes, Ron.