Affinity for Dissonance

[Jonah]

I think dissonance can be a powerful form of expression, and once you can accept something like this tune, other stuff doesn't seem so dissonant, and stuff with little dissonance hardly feels like jazz at all. Albert played at Trane's funeral.

It seems more like extreme use of dissonance... the realtions are still the same
Dissonance/consonance is about relation that we hear...

On the other hand there's music like Luigi Nono's Prometheus that does not involve pitch as a meaningful parameter... so even when you hear cluster there it's not dissonance and pure 5th is not conssonance...

[ragman1]

Imagine you live under the beautiful sky and then suddenly it's broken dome and you see behind it real sky

That's the point. The dome, however beautiful, is artificial. But you only realise that when it breaks and you see the real sky.

But don't say 'Is the real sky false too?' because then you go mad. That's exactly what madness is.

[Jonah]

That's the point. The dome, however beautiful, is artificial. But you only realise that when it breaks and you see the real sky.

But don't say 'Is the real sky false too?' because then you go mad. That's exactly what madness is.

Not quite...


stay sane but sensitive.

Family and kids is the best method to stay sane. Even if you do not want they will make you... by driving you crazy)))

[ragman1]

Do you want to be like that?

Hopefully not. But then I don't play trombone :-)

[ragman1]

stay sane but sensitive.

You've been reading those 'spiritual' books!

Family and kids is the best method to stay sane.

Then one day they die... What happens to you then?

[ragman1]

Anyway, what is dissonance? Dissonance varies in context, like colours vary depending on the background.



This is a dissonant sound... but it's different in context.

[Jonah]

You've been reading those 'spiritual' books!

I am one of those spiritual books... called 'miserable human being'

Then one day they die... What happens to you then?

[MikeK]

Folks - thanks again for your thoughts on this. I'm feeling energized to continue my exploration of jazz.

Ragman1 - to answer your question to me above, yes you did understand my question, including the differences between understanding a thing, developing a like for it through habituation, and having an innate affinity for it.

Best regards,

Mike

[Gabor]

1. There are physiological and psychological differencesamong people that influence the amount of dissonance they find pleasing;
2. It’s all a matter of conditioning (or in today’sworld, maybe I should say “Dissonance is a social construct”), and with enoughlistening, almost any amount of dissonance can become pleasing;
3. Those players who focus extensively on thedissonant end of outside playing are mainly focusing on concepts or provingtheir theoretical chops, and don’t necessarily enjoy the sounds they’recreating.

The question is interesting thanks for popping up.
I see a bit differently both jazz and dissonance, and their relation.

To answer your specific questions :

1a) Physiological: Music - especially listening - seems to be a mental thing. Great conductors only read the full orchestra score in a silent room and hear the music. What is more convincing Beethoven did not have even hearing when he had still created the greatest complex music purely in his mind. So: no


1b) Psychological: Not directly. Listening and absorbing complex music requires a path to walk far enough, so requires an (psyhological) attitude to wish and enjoy discovering new things. Surely Al Bundy will not do such a thing. (no offense Al Bundy fans) so Al Bundy do not like jazz, neither dissonance. However this is a false cause - causality relation similarly to: "Eating banana enhances seeing." (have you ever seen a monkey with glasses?).

2) I do not understand what do you mean on “Dissonance is a social construct”. Regarding the rest of the sentence: No, the amount of listening is necessary, but this is not the point. What means is the intellectual and emotional context. If you have a positive experience in general when listening, then the repeated exposure to complexity will more and more make sense. From "strange and dissonant (unsafe)" category it will be shifted to "well known and understood (safe, desirable)". As opposite: If a imagined prisoner is tortured with dissonance... we can sure he will not like it.

3) Playing/performing complex music is not about "enjoy" it is about expressing the self. Of course the self expression can cause joy (but not necessarily). I can not imagine a real artist who outside plays (just to be cool) while she/he hates the result produced.

***

(Some general notes of your other assumptions, preceding your questions:

Not the dissonance is what distinguishes jazz from all other genres. It is mainly: a) rhythm b) improvisation.

- in 1920 - 1950 jazz was more consonant than the contemporary composed music (Stravinsky, Bartók) Also back in early 1700s Bach used many dissonances, and also his chromatic lines are pretty usual.

- The composed music (neither pop or rock) can never reach the rhythmic complexity of the simplest jazz ensemble. (and not talking about Antonio Sanchez, and a sax impro over his drum layer)

- Improvisation (for the listener) is about surprise. Many jazz listeners are seeking for new. You feel the vibe on your back when the improviser does something what surprises you. This is essential when absorbing jazz, dissonance is a secondary expression tool in this context. Well I know. When listening hundreds time of a record, how can it be surprising? I can not explain...still cool)

[MikeK]

Gabor - thanks for your comments - a very interesting perspective. My comment about dissonance being a social construct was a joke, albeit consistent with the non-physiological explanation for affinity for dissonance.

Best regards,

Mike

[pingu]

This is the reality and the feel of reality what's more in focus here... I believe human being should always test his sense of reality.
It's kind of balance you know... if you dive too much into the world of conventional ideas you will live in teh fake world adn think it's real (as most people most of the time do).
If you go to deep into trying the reality you will lose all connections with others, all conventional ties, and sense of culture - you'll be insane.

.

I agree , catch 22

[goldenwave77]

You should go take a look at the documentary on Pat Martino.

At one point, Martino had an aneurysm, IIRC, in his brain which almost killed him. I think it is unclear exactly how long he had this condition.

He said at one point, prior to his medical breakdown, that ordinarily "consonant" music started to sound wrong to him, and that "out" music started to sound more right....and if you find the exact discussion, I think you'll see he wasn't just talking about....straight diatonic, vanilla progressions are boring, etc. and out stuff being more interesting, artistically. I think he experienced on a purely, non-judgmental way of hearing...physiologically, in other words.

After his operation, he had to re-learn what he'd known before...but I'm pretty sure that this "out" as right/correct perception, did NOT re-manifest itself.

I guess, in a way, this is like people with migraine who have visual auras, or brain tumor sufferers who have different perceptual manifestations.

Anyway, it is worth a look....I think the documentary is on YT.

[Robertkoa]

..Musical Context is very important...

Someone mentioned a Dominant 13 b9 b5 -on another Thread

I played this

5 - 6 - 5 -6- 7- 6 and thought - kinda harsh Voicing..
BUT as Valt of V 7 #9

X - 5 -4 -5- 6- 6



Then to any Gminor7 or Gmin9

I could use that on all kinds of Tunes even Pop R&B..

The Dissonance resolves to the # 9 Voicing

Then the #9 Voicing releases into the Gmin 9


And it ( the same V alt of V# 9) resolves to Eminor

Or
Bb 11/13 F# Maj 7

Not so dissonant in Context and the energy of those two releases differently with less finality in the two deceptive resolutions ..to Eminor
And Bb 11/ 13 .


There is energy in dissonance...

Tension/ Release...a real thing.

[TKO]

1. There are physiological and psychological differencesamong people that influence the amount of dissonance they find pleasing;
2. It’s all a matter of conditioning (or in today’sworld, maybe I should say “Dissonance is a social construct”), and with enoughlistening, almost any amount of dissonance can become pleasing;
3. Those players who focus extensively on thedissonant end of outside playing are mainly focusing on concepts or provingtheir theoretical chops, and don’t necessarily enjoy the sounds they’recreating.

Regarding dissonance/atonal music in general..

1. I have no scientific backing for this, but my gut feeling would be "Yes". Empirically I have tested this at home - "Ascension" by Coltrane or Ayler's "New York Eye and Ear Control" does result in some eye rolling from my wife that prefers more tonal music.

2. Not necessarily - IMHO, your ears can get used to anything but finding dissonance pleasing would need you to find "something" in it. For me some musical dissonance/atonality goes too far, so that I lose track of what is happening and then it's just noise (which as a musical genre itself is pretty challenging). It necessarily doesn't have to be the release of the tension harmonically, it might just be that you find the pulse/rhythm/whatever in there that makes it pleasing.

3. It could be that sometimes the concept runs over the end result, if it is interesting for the artist. For example - I tried what kind of lines/music it would create if I "wrote" letters, words and sentences on the fretboard. In that case I didn't find the end result pleasing and left it at that, but for someone the concept itself could have been the justification for 60min of music and an album called "Wordplay".