-
Hi guys - newbie to the forums:
Recently I played a beautiful C13 chord which in tab looks like:
7 = B
8 = G
7 = D
7 = A
7 = E
8 = C
Why is it only called Cmaj13 when it also includes a major 7 (B) and a major 9 (D)?
Is there a resource for reference in order to understand the rules of knowing the difference between Cmaj13 and simply C13 or C7add9 instead of C9?
Hope to hear from ya!
jmp
-
12-26-2017 07:48 PM
-
C9 usually means it's dom chord (b7) + 9.
To have a natural 7 you usually write Cmaj9
-
C means triad
Originally Posted by jmp
Cmaj7 = maj7 chord
Cmaj9 = maj7 and 9
Cmaj13 = maj7 and 9 and 11 and 13
C7 dom chord
C9=dom and 9
C13=dom and all extensions
add13 means you just add specific extension to basic chord , not all the extensions on between
Basically that's it.
-
Any number higher than 7 (9, 13) means that a seven (either maj7 or b7) is in the chord. When you see e.g. a 13 chord (minor, major or dom) a 9 is optional but doesn't necessarily be part of the chord.
-
So would it be accurate to say that as guitarists, we're allowed to leave off certain 'extensions' due to practicality? If so, would a pianist be given this kind of latitude since they are technically not inhibited in the same way as we are? Originally Posted by ragman1
Thanks!
-
As the others have said.
On the guitar, however, playing every note in a chord isn't always necessary or practical. So, whereas a Cmaj13 technically contains C E G B D F# A in that order by stacking 3rds, it's not essential to play every note to make the chord sound right. And not necessarily in that order.
In your example there's no 11 and, except for C and E, the other notes are out of order. The B's on the top string!
In this voicing, often used - x3x455 - C B E A - there's no 5, 9 or 11.
There are other ways of playing maj13 chords, of course, including inversions.
-
There are many conventions for naming chords. Here's one.
The letter at the front of the chord name is the root of the chord.
The quality description (maj, [no quality implies dominant], minor, etc.) determines the 3rd, or the 3rd and the 7th in a 4-note or larger chord:
maj = 3, 7 e.g. Cmaj7
dominant = 3, b7 e.g. C7
minor = b3, b7 e.g. Cm7
diminished = b3, bb7 e.g. Cdim, Cdim7, or Co, where the "o" is a superscript.
The last number determines the highest extension of the chord. If the chord in question is diatonic, then all the lower extensions are included implicitly. E.g.,
Cmaj7 = 1 3 5 7
C7 = 1 3 5 b7
Cm7 = 1 b3 5 b7
Cdim = 1 b3 b5 bb7 (sometimes called Cdim7)
Cmaj9 = 1 3 5 7 9
Cmaj13 = 1 3 5 7 9 11 13 (another poster indicated the #11. That's often used instead of the diatonic 11 because it sounds less dissonant)
On keyboard, you can play all these notes. On guitar, you can only play 4 notes at a time unless you're using barres. Therefore you have to choose what to include and what to leave out. Usually but not always, you want to keep the third, the seventh, and the topmost extension. You can almost always leave out the fifth, because the fifth almost never contributes to the harmonic identity of the chord. You can usually leave out the root, because either somebody else is playing it or the ear more or less synthesizes the root from the context of the chord in the progression. (The interval between the third and the seventh pretty much defines the harmonic identity of the chord. This interval is important enough that the component pitches have their own name: the "guide tones".) So a Cmaj13 on guitar might contain C E B A, or maybe only E B A.
Alterations: numbers and qualities after the number indicated above describe alterations from the vanilla diatonic chord.
Cm7 b5 = 1 b3 b5 b7 (compare to Cm7). This is the "half-diminished chord". Sometimes notated as Co/, where the o has a slash through it.
Cmaj7 b9 = 1 3 5 7 b9 (compare to Cmaj9)
Cmaj13 #11 = 1 3 5 7 9 #11 13. (compare to Cmaj13).
Additions: If you want to add only a single extension without implying the lower extensions, use the word "add". E.g.,
Cmaj7 add 13 = 1 3 5 7 13.
Slash notation: If you want a particular note on the bottom, use a slash and the name of the desired bass note. E.g.,
Cmaj7/G = 1 3 5 7, but with the 5 in the bass, so 5 1 3 7.
Inversions: I've written almost everything above in "root position", i.e., with the root of the chord on the bottom and other chord tones in order ascending. The notes often appear in other orders, though, and often cover more than an octave, particularly on guitar. If the 3rd is on the bottom, it's the "first inversion"; if the 5th, "second inversion"; if the 7th, the "third inversion". Inversion descriptions aren't used often outside of classical music - usually use slash notation instead.Last edited by dconeill; 12-28-2017 at 05:04 PM.
-
The OP brings up an interesting point. When we see a 13, we assume that it has 7 9 11 and 13.
Notably, in charts done in Brazil, the naming conventions may be different.
For example, right now I'm looking at Edu Lobo's Arpador.
The first chord is B 67M(9). I can't actually write it correctly on screen. The 6 is directly above the 7 and the M is to the right of the 7. The (9) is the same size and level as the B.
So, this is close to a Bmaj13. The difference is that the Brazilian notation does not specify an 11th.
Later in the tune there is a B74(9), with the 7 above the 4. That's a 7sus4 chord with a 9th.
I have also seen the 4 above the 7. That would seem to specify that the 4 is really an 11, meaning played in the octave above the 7.
In another chart there is F2/A, with 2 as a superscript. I assume it's a G, one step above the F root and then with an A in the bass.
I bring it up only to point out there are other conventions -- with this one seeming to be with the intent of being more specific about the voicing without having to write notes on a staff.
-
rpj -
We can do super/sub script here if it helps. In the posting window you'll see X2 and X2 ... et voila
-
Originally Posted by ragman1
rpj -
We can do super/sub script here if it helps. In the posting window you'll see X2 and X2 ... et voila
thank you
-
Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Yes... I noticed that too in Brazilian charts...
No certaina convention actually...
There are also classical figures that sometimes appear in pop charts... in a weird way like
G 6 4 (where 6 is above 4) - in classical that 6/4 means 2nd inversion of triad... so what does it mena here? C major with G in the bass?
Or G major with 6 and 4 sus?)))
There's no strict rule as in classical...
-
In theory, maybe, but have you ever seen (or played) a maj7, maj9 or maj13, chord with a perfect 11? F on top of Cmaj7? Originally Posted by Jonah
I doubt it... You end up with a G7 chord on top of a C triad. Dominant and tonic jammed together.
As ragman1 says, a #11 is possible, but would (should) always be indicated in the symbol.
So a complete Cmaj13 would be C E G B D A. No F. And the 9 is optional, since it only fills out the chord, doesn't change its basic sound or function.
The minimum required for Cmaj13 is C E B A. And only E B A if the bass plays C.
The P11 would also generally be omitted from a C13, although it's not quite as critically dissonant as on a Cmaj13. You only get the "avoid note" interval E-F, not the functionally confusing B-F. Originally Posted by Jonah
Yes, except that "Cadd13" means the exact same thing as "C6", so is somewhat redundant. Originally Posted by Jonah
-
Neither does normal jazz convention. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
The Brazilian symbol specifies a maj7 ("7M") with the 6th above, and a 9th added. That's a verbose way of saying that the 11 should not be included, but it would normally be omitted from a jazz "maj13" anyway.
Probably, yes. In jazz shorthand, of course, "11" implies the inclusion of 7 without the 7 needing to be mentioned. The note in question could still be voiced below the 7th. Jazz shorthand doesn't specify voicing - except in slash chords. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
In fact, "11" (if not on a minor chord) is normally shorthand for "9sus4", implying the 3rd is omitted. "C11" = C G Bb D F, or C F G Bb D, or C F Bb D, etc. C in bass, no E, and the rest can go in any order.
Right. I guess in that music the voicings are more critical than they are in standard jazz charts, where one only needs to know the notes to include, and voicing is optional. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
-
The chord that used to give me trouble sometimes recording with a Keyboard Player was the Major Seven b5..
1 - 3 - b5 - 7 so I would have a very crude chart- the Keyboard Player might Play a
Major 7 #11 - which I call it when there's ..
1 - 3 - 5 - 7 - #11
Jazz Guys seem to use these interchangeably..but they can really act differently especially with Guitar and Keyboards and a Vocal...
And there's not really precise Names so sketching out exactly is sometimes needed.
-
Yes... I just tried to put it in the simple and systematic form... Originally Posted by JonR
In theory, maybe, but have you ever seen (or played) a maj7, maj9 or maj13, chord with a perfect 11? F on top of Cmaj7?
I doubt it... You end up with a G7 chord on top of a C triad. Dominant and tonic jammed together.
As ragman1 says, a #11 is possible, but would (should) always be indicated in the symbol.
So a complete Cmaj13 would be C E G B D A. No F. And the 9 is optional, since it only fills out the chord, doesn't change its basic sound or function.
The minimum required for Cmaj13 is C E B A. And only E B A if the bass plays C.
The P11 would also generally be omitted from a C13, although it's not quite as critically dissonant as on a Cmaj13. You only get the "avoid note" interval E-F, not the functionally confusing B-F.
Yes, except that "Cadd13" means the exact same thing as "C6", so is somewhat redundant.
I belive good ears and real contextual playing will teach the best...
The topic is not a big problem from my pov
-
There's usually a context for a chord and sometimes it's very obvious what the voice leading is implying and which unspecified notes can be omitted. A lead sheet's chord notation has a more general approach to the harmony, when an actual guitar chart is usually more specific on what notes need to be included, because the arranger could be knowledgeable about the guitar's limitations, though often this is not the case. Originally Posted by jmp
-
The chord symbol on the chart usually specifies 4 or 5 notes. There can be more. Or it could specify a triad.
Typically, if the arranger specified a triad, I play exactly that.
It if specifies 5 notes, I'm likely to omit the root, because the bassist is playing it.
There's always an argument that the perfect 5th will be heard as an overtone of the root. If you pluck the low E string you may be able to hear the B that comes along as an overtone, to prove this to yourself.
This argues that the fifth can be omitted, but it really depends on how you're doing the voicings and voice leading.
The third, nat, flat or raised, determines whether it's a major, minor or sus. So that's an important note and best heard in the harmony.
The 7th determines dominant or not, also important. So, for a lot of music and most older music this is important to include.
There is a rhythm style which uses 3rds and 7ths only.
Beyond that there are extensions. Should you play them? Depends on the situation. In horn band, usually the horns have them. You can listen to the horns and figure out which notes you may want to double. It can add texture to the band.
Solo guitar behind a singer doing a ballad -- kitchen sink.
Comping behind a soloist? Probably 3 note chords. A lot of the greats did it this way. Sometimes 2 notes, sometimes 3. Which 3 notes? Not simple. It depends on the flow of the harmonic line.
The idea is for the harmony to have enough interest, flow and structure to sound good by itself. So, you decide on a starting group of notes, maybe 3 of them. Then, you move them as smoothly as possible to the next chord.
The pianist is capable of playing a lot more notes at a time, but most are more judicious than that. Intermediate players tend to be too busy. Some of the greats are pretty sparse, but not all.
The issue is that comping usually sounds best (to me anyway) when there's a bass note which is well below the pitch of the next lowest note in the comping instruments. It also sounds best when it's outside of the frequency range of the soloist. Guitar comping is usually done in one of two octaves (although some guitars allow comping in a third octave to some degree). So you have to pick one. Jumping around can really spice things up, or sound awful.
It is possible to adjust EQ to avoid conflict even in the same octave. I think that's how Freddie Greene did it. His guitar tone was not muddy at all. Of course, that was the guitar, not a device.
Anyway, it's complicated. But, the point is that you try to pick those few notes which will enhance the sound of the band. I play a gig where, for some reason, my D string tends to sound muddy. I don't usually have the problem elsewhere. I solved the problem by comping on the B and G strings quite often. Nobody complained.
Reply With Quote
Just Friends -- or keeping things simple
Today, 12:04 AM in Improvisation