15 chord?

[timscarey]

Anyone on here ever heard of a 15 chord?
There is a big band composer named Jim Knapp here in seattle who uses them in his tunes. wondering if this is just a thing he does or if other people do it too.

While I'm asking, ever heard of a # or b 12 chord. Dave Peck, a local pianist uses that name for a chord type. Same question, ever heard of it?

[randalljazz]

never heard of either chord, but seems clear what they intend. (have heard of dave peck, though...probably on the earshot site.)

[Jazzarian]

Originally Posted by randalljazz

never heard of either chord, but seems clear what they intend. (have heard of dave peck, though...probably on the earshot site.)

15th chord? if the 15th is an octave above the 7th, the 16th must be a repeat of the root?


I'm sure pianists play Maj23d chords all the time.

[timscarey]

It's a voicing like this...

C(15)

C in the bass

Db, E, G, C

The 15 (C) is a suspention of the 7th. According to Jim, it only works with a b9 present and the 15 will usually resolve to the 7th before the next chord happens. It sounds pretty cool.

The altered 12 is used when you have a flat and #5 in a chord and you want to be clear about which one is on top.

CMaj7b5(#12)

C in the bass

E, Gb, B, G#

[Jazzarian]

Originally Posted by timscarey

It's a voicing like this...

C(15)

C in the bass

Db, E, G, C

The 15 (C) is a suspention of the 7th. According to Jim, it only works with a b9 present and the 15 will usually resolve to the 7th before the next chord happens. It sounds pretty cool.

An 11th is a 4th an octave above, or "Sus4", right? A 13th is a 5th an octave up above, right? 14th above is a 6th above, and..........


I was kidding before, but it's really just another way of saying "blah in the bass" or "Blah an octave up".

Piano players would be laughing, I know.

[randalljazz]

guess it's not clear at all, as i would have assumed something different from your explanation, tim.

jazzarian, check your arithmetic!

[JohnW400]

Isn't ther something written somewhere about a 23rd chord ? Now I'm going to have to dig around. But I'm with you Randall. I never would have figured out what they're looking for.

I would have assumed it to be a 2 handed piano voicing notating the top note to be a 15th or 12th from the root.



Update. I found a 23rd reference in microtonal music. We'll have to dig a bit more

[Jazzarian]

Originally Posted by JohnW400

Isn't ther something written somewhere about a 23rd chord ? Now I'm going to have to dig around. But I'm with you Randall. I never would have figured out what they're looking for.

I would have assumed it to be a 2 handed piano voicing notating the top note to be a 15th or 12th from the root.



Update. I found a 23rd reference in microtonal music. We'll have to dig a bit more

Why would a reference to a 23rd be there? I'd think a 23rd would be "Macro-Tonal"? Give or take a few "cents".

[timscarey]

obviously, these 2 chord symbols are not commonly used, if ever used by anyone other than these people. just wondering if anyone had ever heard of them.

I think the sounds are really nice and somewhat unique to the voicings described by the symbols.

[peterk1]

Originally Posted by Jazzarian

15th chord? if the 15th is an octave above the 7th, the 16th must be a repeat of the root?
I'm sure pianists play Maj23d chords all the time.

Man, a lot of mistakes on here with this one.
For those chords with numbers > 8, the formula to get the note of interest is to subtract 7 (or 15 if the composer has gone completely haywire).

C9 = the ninth is a D or the 2nd (9-7 = 2)
C13 = the 13th is a A or the 6th (13 - 7 = 6)

so a 15th just means 2 octaves up from the root. 15 - 7 = 8.
#12 would mean a #5 an octave up from the root. 12 - 7 = 5

These chord formulas (15th, 12th) are kind of nonsensical and unneeded. The player should be able to choose the voicing he wants. If the composer wants an exact chord, then it should be spelled out exactly instead of using an arcane chord symbol that no-one understands.

[Jazzarian]

Originally Posted by peterk1

Man, a lot of mistakes on here with this one.
For those chords with numbers > 8, the formula to get the note of interest is to subtract 7 (or 15 if the composer has gone completely haywire).

C9 = the ninth is a D or the 2nd (9-7 = 2)
C13 = the 13th is a A or the 6th (13 - 7 = 6)

so a 15th just means 2 octaves up from the root. 15 - 7 = 8.
#12 would mean a #5 an octave up from the root. 12 - 7 = 5

These chord formulas (15th, 12th) are kind of nonsensical and unneeded. The player should be able to choose the voicing he wants. If the composer wants an exact chord, then it should be spelled out exactly instead of using an arcane chord symbol that no-one understands.

Ok Mark Levine, let's just say the pattern repeats after the 7th degree, therefore the 15th is 2 octaves above the original root. Yes a 22nd is 3 octaves above the root. It's kind of a joke to consider much past a 13th for guitar. Only pianists would care.

Doubters should look at the following:

C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15

[peterk1]

> the 16th must be a repeat of the root?

Your last post is correct.
Your original post was off by one.

And I've got a huge headache now, trying to figure these out.

[Jazzarian]

Originally Posted by peterk1

Not really. A 22nd is the 6th.

C1 = 1st degree
C2 = 8th degree
C3 = 16th degree
C4 = 24th degree

That reply was not targeted at you specifically. A lot of people on this thread were off by 2-3 degrees trying to figure them out.

That's weird. 22 -15 should be the 7th.

Now, I have a headache.

Your count goes awry on the C3, which by the count above is 15th.

Programmers face similar problems when arrays are "0" based or "1" based.

[timscarey]

Originally Posted by peterk1

These chord formulas (15th, 12th) are kind of nonsensical and unneeded. The player should be able to choose the voicing he wants. If the composer wants an exact chord, then it should be spelled out exactly instead of using an arcane chord symbol that no-one understands.

Again, more of an idea or classification device than something you'd put on a lead sheet. Useful in voice leading, arranging, teaching, and orchestration.

But if you listen too it. A "C15" and a "C7b9 with the root on top", do not sound the same, the lack of the Bb makes the root sound like a suspention... or extention... or tention... or whatever you call it. With the Bb in the chord, the C on top sounds like the root on top, not usually a desired sound.

[JohnW400]

I think this is where that diminshed chord wit a major 7 th (or whatever alteration)
comes into play

[peterk1]

Originally Posted by timscarey

Again, more of an idea or classification device than something you'd put on a lead sheet. Useful in voice leading, arranging, teaching, and orchestration.

But if you listen too it. A "C15" and a "C7b9 with the root on top", do not sound the same, the lack of the Bb makes the root sound like a suspention... or extention... or tention... or whatever you call it. With the Bb in the chord, the C on top sounds like the root on top, not usually a desired sound.

Yes, but chord names, that we see in Jazz and pop charts are there as a shorthand so the player can instantly come up with one out of several possibilities that he know fits without having a detailed spelling of the desired chord. They have to be easily recognizable by the player otherwise they have no purpose.

Classical pianists don't have these chord names at the top of their charts because every note is spelled out for them.

If a composer puts something crazy on a chart like C15 he's either
1) trying to get that symbol into the common vocabulary
2) Just being a smart alec

In your example, there's nothing in the name C15 that implies to any player that he should alter the 9th. It's meaningless.

[JohnW400]

Originally Posted by peterk1

Classical pianists don't have these chord names at the top of their charts because every note is spelled out for them.

If a composer puts something crazy on a chart like C15 he's either
1) trying to get that symbol into the common vocabulary
2) Just being a smart alec

In your example, there's nothing in the name C15 that implies to any player that he should alter the 9th. It's meaningless.

classical guitar pieces also do not have the chord name son top. Actually this is mostly for pop, rock jazz, etc.


Yes I concur. C15 sounds like a name invented by a couple of musicians i the local pub after a few drinks discusing art.

[bako]

Chord symbol notation is presently designed for limited collection of harmonies.

Some supplemental tools include:
extensive numerical indications (Cma7#5#9#11),
add chords (add9)
indicating a chord tone omitted (F9 no 3rd)
slash chords E7b5/C chord over bass note
polytonal chords C+/Bbtr or Dma7#5/C7
multi tier chords over bass Fm/F#/Bb bass
chords in a stated modal context

I have yet to meet any composer or chart writer more concerned with impressing people
than that their intentions are understood and rendered.
I tend to write out specific voicings when needed but there are different approaches developing and some are gaining traction but not universally.

I personally don't understand the 15th as a suspension. I hear it as doubling the root. I can easily hear the note moving down but not as a dissonant tone requiring resolution.

Also, I would have probably used b13 sooner than #12 and I can live with a b5 and #5 in the same chord.

I am of course unaware of the context in which he made these choices and so would be curious what factors led to his decisions.

[Jazzarian]

Originally Posted by JohnW400

Yes I concur. C15 sounds like a name invented by a couple of musicians i the local pub after a few drinks discusing art.

We usually discuss the Schrodinger Wave Equation and the Pauli Exclusion Principle.

Some guy brought up Stokes Theorum last week and was kicked out of the bar.

[timscarey]

for the 3rd time.....

these are not used as chord symbols on lead sheets, as far as I know. But strangely enough. are understood by many of the modern jazz cats here in seattle. Basically, anyone who has played in Jim Knapp's big band has seen them, and soloed on them. Or anyone who really cares about jazz theory, in this town anyway, has had this same discussion. I personally would never use a 15 chord in music I was sharing with others, so as not to seem pretentious. However, I have used tham many times as part of composition or arranging (where chord symbols are not seem by the players). when the 15 chord shows up in the solos, I call it a 7(b9) as anyone else would. Just trying to get some people thinking forward, and start a heated discussion on my favorite website....

[wizard3739]

Hey Timscarey,

Since you are from Seattle, I thought you might have run into my old friend Don Mock. I haven't seen him since 1978 and if you know him say hello for me.

wiz (Howard Brown)

[timscarey]

Will do, he plays every tuesday with a bass player named Steve Kim.

[dfhwze]

the perfect 15th is indeed the unison 2 octaves higher. a 15th chord is a chord that adds the diminished or augmented 15th, together with the root and the 9th. however, if either of these 2 would not be presented, the 15th would have taken the function of the missing note. An example of a full 15th chord is C(root)-D(9th)-G-E-A-F#-C#(15th).

a b12 chord seems like a blue chord to me.

[timscarey]

Originally Posted by dfhwze

the perfect 15th is indeed the unison 2 octaves higher. a 15th chord is a chord that adds the diminished or augmented 15th, together with the root and the 9th. however, if either of these 2 would not be presented, the 15th would have taken the function of the missing note. An example of a full 15th chord is C(root)-D(9th)-G-E-A-F#-C#(15th).

Dig it,

I would call that a #15 but of course, what I would call it is not importaint.

I was really just wanting to get into a discussion of what to call the old "diminished with a major 7th"

My teacher calls it a 7(b9)15.

Assuming you have a bass player present...

C-root (bass)

Db-b9 (root function)
E - 3rd
G - 5th
C - 15 (7th function)

I call that a 15 chord because to my ear, even though the (upper) C is technically the root, it sounds like a tention and wants to resolve down to the 7th, just as a 9th would have a tendancy to resolve to the root.

[Reg]

Where are you guys coming up with this material?...Typical chords are built in thirds unless other wise stated. The notes don't change, if your in key of C , the notes are C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C. What does 8va mean, up an octave, what does 15va mean, up two octaves, what does 22va mean, up three octaves.
If your making reference to pitch location, then your not talking about pitch but about which octave of C scale, in relationship to cycles per sec. C1 is at bottem of piano, C4 is middle and C8 is top. The notes in between are called by the C number below. C4,D4,E4 etc...C5,D5 etc...I totally agree with Tim...Chord notation using anything above 13 is not normal,( I didn't say wrong, just not the norm.) As I have made reference to many times and will gladly do again the "Standard Chord Symbol Notation" by Carl Brandt and Clinton Roemer from mid 70's is by far the most used system. I disagree with their notation of Dom.7th chords, as do many others, but were stuck with it. If the notation is making reference to voicings...that's a totally different subject.... Reg

[Reg]

Now to the real material... sounds like great Pub, I'm in ... Hey Tim I'll be in Portland late April...would be cool to hook up....I can buzz up from Portland. Reg

[cosmic gumbo]

Sounds like a chord for math freaks. I've read hundreds and hundreds of charts and never encountered it once.

[Reg]

On that Dim. maj 7 chord...where do you pull from, 4th or 6th degree of harmonic maj. with added nat. 13, (Har. Maj, C,D,E,F,G,Ab,B C, sometimes the Bb is added to make V chord have both b9 and #9, The normal V7b9 in Har Maj or V7#9)... or from symmetrical Dim....anyway name would depend on function is school of my choice...Good subject..Reg

[JohnW400]

When in doubt.....write it out.

I would rather the composer/arranger write out the chord and voicing when they want a specific ,unusual chord (i.e. any thibg above a 13th)

When it comes to shortcuts i think the classical world has the jazz/pop world beat with their use of figured bass . You know, I 63 Ect. That pretty much tells you how they want it.

Still, if the arranger hear's a particular voicing he should write it out on the beat it occurs followed by the slashes.

[dfhwze]

Originally Posted by Reg

Where are you guys coming up with this material?...Typical chords are built in thirds unless other wise stated. The notes don't change, if your in key of C , the notes are C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C. ...

Suppose you're using a post-gregorian scale with altered major and minor thirds (GEGBDF#AC#..), you encounter the augmented 15th at C#. However, rather dissonant, 15th chords become available for passing use.