Maj II chord in major progressions?

**wengr** · 10-05-2017, 08:16 AM

What's going on when we find a progression that appears to have a major tonic chord, and is built from the major chord scale, but the two chord is also major?

**mr. beaumont** · 10-05-2017, 08:18 AM

Major or dominant?

**wengr** · 10-05-2017, 08:22 AM

Major. Say we have A major and B major. On paper, I think first that we might be in the key of E major, but to the ear the tonic is A major.

**christianm77** · 10-05-2017, 08:51 AM

Can you provide an example in a song?

**basinstreet** · 10-05-2017, 08:54 AM

think there was a thread on this a while ago i think - as per eight days a week.

cant remember what the verdict was (or find the thread) other than it sounds good.

I'm not the right person to respond, I just cant see a major 2 chord without thinking "8days a week"

**wengr** · 10-05-2017, 09:04 AM

I'm not where I can listen to verify but Words by the Bee Gees comes to mind.
G A D C
Also a Bb in there(can't explain that one either)

**christianm77** · 10-05-2017, 09:06 AM

Well to be unambiguously major as opposed to a dominant chord with no 7th, you'd need to have a maj7 in.

II major triads are common in the Beatle's music. Another good example is Here Comes the Sun

**wengr** · 10-05-2017, 09:14 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Well to be unambiguously major as opposed to a dominant chord with no 7th, you'd need to have a maj7 in.

II major triads are common in the Beatle's music. Another good example is Here Comes the Sun

Ok yes, so when the II triad has a natural third that's not in the global key, is there a name for that situation?

**pingu** · 10-05-2017, 09:56 AM

Like in A train

In C

|C. |D(7). |G7. |C. |

The II(7) is called (by me anyway)
A "secondary dominant"

Even if its just the D triad
Because it is performing a dominant type function
ie. it is pointing to the G chord

**bako** · 10-05-2017, 10:15 AM

Thembi by Pharoah Sanders is a two chord vamp song ||: Bbma7 | Abma7 :||

Bb major is the tonal center. I don't have time to scan the whole song but in the melody anyway
the Ab is treated as a lydian chord derived from Eb major.
The differential between the two scales is one note (BbCDEbFGA ... AbBbCDEbFG)
Simple explanation in this case is to consider the Abma7 (IVma7) a borrowed chord from Eb major, a closely related key.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 10-05-2017, 10:18 AM

If it's truly a major II (without seventh), flat seven is implied by the parent key anyway. So it has to be basically considered a secondary dominant. doesn't it? Not a fan of overly hypothetical , but music doesn't happen in a vacuum . Chords aren't in separate bubbles - chord to chord. It's part of the whole.

**mr. beaumont** · 10-05-2017, 10:24 AM

Originally Posted by bako

Thembi by Pharoah Sanders is a two chord vamp song ||: Bbma7 | Abma7 :||

Bb major is the tonal center. I don't have time to scan the whole song but in the melody anyway
the Ab is treated as a lydian chord derived from Eb major.
The differential between the two scales is one note (BbCDEbFGA ... AbBbCDEbFG)
Simple explanation in this case is to consider the Abma7 (IVma7) a borrowed chord from Eb major, a closely related key.

Right, this is why I asked about that 2nd chord truly being major, as it implies a completely different harmonic environment.

Two maj (7) chords a whole step apart definitely screams lydian to me. If the II is a II7, it's just a secondary dominant...it probably pulls to V. Don't play Hank Williams tunes without it.

**christianm77** · 10-05-2017, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by wengr

Ok yes, so when the II triad has a natural third that's not in the global key, is there a name for that situation?

]

Depends on what chord comes next. Chords in isolation are neither here nor there. Everything functions within a context.

Can you give an example?

**christianm77** · 10-05-2017, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by bako

Thembi by Pharoah Sanders is a two chord vamp song ||: Bbma7 | Abma7 :||

Bb major is the tonal center. I don't have time to scan the whole song but in the melody anyway
the Ab is treated as a lydian chord derived from Eb major.
The differential between the two scales is one note (BbCDEbFGA ... AbBbCDEbFG)
Simple explanation in this case is to consider the Abma7 (IVma7) a borrowed chord from Eb major, a closely related key.

I'd be more inclined to think that the Abmaj7 is bVIImaj7.

**bako** · 10-05-2017, 11:51 AM

I'd be more inclined to think that the Abmaj7 is bVIImaj7.

Exactly how I think of it and would label it. Still, the melodic note collection does come from somewhere.
I tend to focus on common tones and differential notes more than modes but that's just a different vantage point
of the same elements.

Maintaining the D against the Abma7 reinforces the Bbma7 tonal center.

**Durban** · 10-05-2017, 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by wengr

Major. Say we have A major and B major. On paper, I think first that we might be in the key of E major, but to the ear the tonic is A major.

Exactly what do you mean by Major

in the above its very much like A Lydian B can be Major or dominant

and being Lydian does not need to resolve it can stay there forever and the reason dont hear it in E Maj its in A Lydian Tonic is Major II is Major/Dominant , often the dominant is played as Major, there are a Godzillion amount of tunes with this, and has nothing to do with the 3rd and borrowed chords from Eb or that Crap.

In Lydian II is II7 remember Dominant is Major, i hope this is clear

**Robertkoa** · 10-08-2017, 08:03 PM

Originally Posted by basinstreet

think there was a thread on this a while ago i think - as per eight days a week.

cant remember what the verdict was (or find the thread) other than it sounds good.

I'm not the right person to respond, I just cant see a major 2 chord without thinking "8days a week"

Me too- I just heard that when I read it..

**gator811** · 10-09-2017, 12:37 AM

There's a section relating to this in Ron Gorow's Reading and Writing Music - where he describes some uses of such things as the IImaj chord in a major key as 'modal'. He's not channelling anything from Jazz Ed obviously, its from chordal use in modal Renaissance music - where the use of non diatonic chords on diatonic melody tones was practiced...and I often think these kind progressions have that ancient vibe.

One example he gives isnt ancient though...what's this II chord doing? I /// III/// IV/// II/// The I and III are sitting on the dock of the bay....

I dont hear this as a II to any V - although I could. I just dont want to....

**christianm77** · 10-09-2017, 06:05 AM

II7 - I is a thing.

Last 8 of Embraceable You for instance:

Cmaj7 | B7 | Em | A7 |
G | D7b9 | G | % |

**Robertkoa** · 10-09-2017, 08:57 AM

Well...I guess Walter Piston's book * ' Harmony ' and many other ' Classical' Theorists would call

II ( Major ) to IV ( major ) an irregular resolution of

V of V or call II - IV - I a irregular but not rare Plagal Cadence

And the Gospel/ Blues feel of III ( Major ) to IV like when Brecker used to Play ( killer ) on Saturday Night Theme ...also ' Georgia '...right ?

[V of vi] irregular resolution to IV or 'Borrowed' Chords but really in Blues or Gospel III to IV sounds like chromatic Harmony with III acting like vii of IV even though not a diminished Triad...
Like if you Solo over the Saturday Night Theme that III Chord feels like a really cool ' Tension' Chord.

That's how I hear it......always searching for more types/ tools of -' Harmonic Glue ' though.

When I think of '8 Days A Week' - the II chord just functions like an Altered ii ( minor ) chord which affects the Melody but not the Resolution of the II - ii and II both flow smoothly to IV without much help.