The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Hi everyone,

    can someone help me with this kind of chord ?

    here's the notes :

    Bb, Db, Gb, C

    it seems to me as a suspended chord, like Absus2...

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    What's the context?

  4. #3

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    1:40


    David

  5. #4

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    Oh Bako, you could have SO much fun with this question.
    Fra88, any one of those notes can be a root, or a tension, or a chord tone, and the power and utility of any aggregate of notes is what they serve in the role of the tonality you've established.
    What mr. beaumont said.

    Where'd this come out of? Nice chord by the way!
    David

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    What's the context?
    The context is Db major scale.

    I'm harmonizing the scale beginning with this chord on the first grade:

    Eb, Gb, C, F

  7. #6

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    Looks like a Gb#4, 1st inversion. But it could be a lot of things.

  8. #7

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    Fra88

    Bb, Db, Gb, C
    That could be an inversion of Gb major (over Bb) with a #11 on top. But if you're in the key of Db major (beginning presumably with Db69), and you're harmonising up, then it's a Bbm chord. Try a sort of Bbm9#5. Or Bbm9b6. Or Bbmb6add9.*

    Eb, Gb, C, F
    That's an Ebm69.

    (If you're harmonizing in Db, the next chord up is F Ab Db Gb and your guess is as good as mine).

    May one inquire what it's all about? It's far too complex but it does sound very nice, I've tried it :-)

    * Alternatively, you could always shoot yourself, might be easier Why don't you do it in C and then adjust?

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Fra88



    That could be an inversion of Gb major (over Bb) with a #11 on top. But if you're in the key of Db major (beginning presumably with Db69), and you're harmonising up, then it's a Bbm chord. Try a sort of Bbm9#5. Or Bbm9b6. Or Bbmb6add9.*



    That's an Ebm69.

    (If you're harmonizing in Db, the next chord up is F Ab Db Gb and your guess is as good as mine).

    May one inquire what it's all about? It's far too complex but it does sound very nice, I've tried it :-)

    * Alternatively, you could always shoot yourself, might be easier Why don't you do it in C and then adjust?
    Thank you ragman.
    I forgot to say that i found this chord : Bb, Db, Gb, C, on the fifth grade; that's why i thought it was connected with Ab chord in some ways.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fra88
    Hi everyone,

    can someone help me with this kind of chord ?

    here's the notes :

    Bb, Db, Gb, C

    it seems to me as a suspended chord, like Absus2...
    In addition to what everyone else has said, your voicing is a very usable one for C7alt.

  11. #10

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    Ragman. I’m not understanding your logic. If it’s in the key of Db it’s a Bbmin chord? If it’s in Db it’s a Gb#4 or #11. That’s a IV chord. What did I miss?


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  12. #11

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    What David was talking about when he mentioned my name was that sometimes I have charted out the intervallic relationshipbetween a given structure from every possible root.

    The findings are then considered from a major, minor or dominant perspective.
    Sometimes it is easiest to view something as a hybrid chord (polychord).

    The way we choose to name a chord points towards a function. If a name
    is to be believable
    then we must be able to contextualize it in a chord sequence
    using said structure in that function.

    Simple answer: Gb(add#11)

    If this was the context:

    Bb Db F C | Bb Db F# C | Bb Db G C | Bb Db Ab C ||

    then I would think of it as Bbm9#5(no 7)



    Last edited by bako; 10-02-2017 at 05:25 PM.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Ragman. I’m not understanding your logic. If it’s in the key of Db it’s a Bbmin chord? If it’s in Db it’s a Gb#4 or #11. That’s a IV chord. What did I miss?
    Because the bottom note is Bb, not Gb.

    Say you were in C, the notes would be ACFB. If it's an F chord it would be inverted. But he said he's harmonising the scale, which means each note in turn becomes the root - C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am - Am is the 6th degree up.

    So it's not an inverted F chord, it's a strange type of Am chord, hence trying to find a suitable name.

    I saw that interview you did the other day, by the way. Terrific :-)

  14. #13

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    Thank you very much regarding the acknowledgment about the interview.

    I don’t know why we should think of a chord always being in root position. Even going up a scale I don’t think of root position, particularly.

    I mean it COULD be a Bbm9#5 no 7, but that’s real awkward. It’s easier for me to think of that as a Gb#4, 1st inversion. I think sometimes we guitar players get stuck on roots, or something. If we played piano we could see it easier.

    I’m not insisting I’m right. I was just trying to understand how you got where you got!


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  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fra88
    Thank you ragman.
    I forgot to say that i found this chord : Bb, Db, Gb, C, on the fifth grade; that's why i thought it was connected with Ab chord in some ways.
    I don't know what you mean by grade. If you mean the 5th degree of the scale starting from Eb, not Db, that would have meaning but I don't think we're supposed to think like that. If you're in Db major then Bb is the 6th degree, and it's a minor chord.

    You haven't answered my question. What is all this? Why is it so complicated? Why Db, not C? I see there are a lot of 6 chords in it too so it may be something to do with Barry Harris... but not necessarily.

    (I'm trying very hard to stop myself wondering why you're doing this at all. Is somebody making you do it or is the torture self-inflicted?!!)

  16. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    I don't know what you mean by grade. If you mean the 5th degree of the scale starting from Eb, not Db, that would have meaning but I don't think we're supposed to think like that. If you're in Db major then Bb is the 6th degree, and it's a minor chord.

    You haven't answered my question. What is all this? Why is it so complicated? Why Db, not C? I see there are a lot of 6 chords in it too so it may be something to do with Barry Harris... but not necessarily.

    (I'm trying very hard to stop myself wondering why you're doing this at all. Is somebody making you do it or is the torture self-inflicted?!!)
    Right Ragman, is self-inflicted !
    Anyway, yes i do mean the 5th degree of the scale, starting from Eb not Db. Why we can't think like that ? We can substitute the root with another note (the 9th in this case) and find another chord voicings along the scale.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fra88
    We can substitute the root with another note (the 9th in this case) and find another chord voicings along the scale.
    Well, I see your point, you're looking for new voicings, new sounds. And, sure, you could take any scale or mode, and, by harmonising, find new sounds. I see nothing wrong with that, it's admirable. But I do think, for clarity's sake, you'd do better keeping it all firmly in order.

    See, correct me if I'm wrong, but if you take a Dm69 from the C maj scale (sorry, let's keep it simpler) and harmonise in 4-note chords then you do come up with interesting chords, all diatonic.

    Or you could alter a chord from the C scale, say G7 to G7b9, and do the same. The trouble there is that, when you get to the Ab, do you raise the next pitch by a half-step or a whole step? I don't know if you see the point there. There are no 7b9 chords in any minor key - natural, harmonic, or melodic minor (if you harmonise in 4-note chords) - so you can't just suppose it comes from C harmonic minor.

    So what do you do? Remove the G root and you have a B D F Ab diminished chord... but what key is that? Etc etc.

    It probably doesn't matter but then you also have the problem of what to call these new sounds - hence your original question, I'm assuming.

    But I'd say if you keep it diatonic then the chord name should relate firmly to the original scale. At least, that's the way I'd see it.

  18. #17

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    When you call a collection of notes a Chord... your implying a root. If your talking about a voicing, then the root has options.

    If your making an analysis... you need context for the analysis to have reference.

    The notes sound lydian... or aeolian so either Gb or Bb... which have a relative relationship.... Root motion of up or down 3rds have functional relative relationships. But now we're getting into compositional theory.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    But now we're getting into compositional theory.
    That's what I was afraid of

    (Not you, the theory!)



    you need context for the analysis to have reference

    He said he's just harmonising the Db maj scale.

  20. #19

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    I’m a composer. Perhaps mainly. I think about these things compositionally. Thanks Reg. I was going to bring this angle up.

    The reason you call chords by certain names have different reasons. It depends on overall function. It also depends on usefulness to the player. I’m writing a chart. Often times the result is the same between functions. But one can click with the player. The other makes him scratch his head and think. A piano player (me too), can relate to the above example as Gb#4. That just makes sense to me. If I’m improvising I can simplify it to a Lydian sound. But for a Bbmin b6 no 7 I have to jump through some mental hoops. First off if I see Bbmi b6 I immediately invert that to a Gb 1st inversion. Lol. That’s so I can think with it.

    There’s a big difference I see with Guitar players who get really introverted into what to call certain grips.

    Gotta get back practicing. Hope something made sense.

    Also I really don’t understand this going up the scale and having to reference roots and what to do with the G7b9.


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    Last edited by henryrobinett; 10-03-2017 at 07:12 PM.

  21. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    When you call a collection of notes a Chord... your implying a root. If your talking about a voicing, then the root has options.

    If your making an analysis... you need context for the analysis to have reference.

    The notes sound lydian... or aeolian so either Gb or Bb... which have a relative relationship.... Root motion of up or down 3rds have functional relative relationships. But now we're getting into compositional theory.
    Yes i agree with you reg. In this case it's more appropriate the term voicing then root.
    But for me you have to do always a scale in your mind.
    For example in a tune by Pat Metheny i've found this voicing over a Cm7 chord :

    Eb - Bb - D - F

    and i've asked myself: where it came from? what is the corresponding scale for this voicing?

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fra88
    this voicing over a Cm7 chord :

    Eb - Bb - D - F
    That's an EbM9. The 1 and 6 chords are relative to each other.

    In relation to a Cm7 the notes are:

    Eb - 3
    Bb - 7
    D - 9
    F - 11

    So really it's just a rootless Cm11 (I'm assuming the bass is playing C - or maybe a piano's playing Cm7 or m11).

  23. #22

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    Fra88 -

    You've got to think in context. Out of context very few things have meaning.

    If I just said the word 'fire' what does it mean? Something's on fire? Or a nice room fire in the grate? Or someone's been sacked from their job?

    I think maybe you're looking at the word 'fire' by itself and trying to figure it out, if you see what I mean. You need the context to make sense of it, right?

    Those notes over a Cm7 make sense when applied to that chord. Otherwise it's just a few notes with maybe quite a few names depending on how they're being used, like Fm6sus4 or Dm#5/Eb... you could go bananas!

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    1:40


    David
    That was incredible. I've never simultaneously learned and unlearned so much at the same time.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fra88

    Bb, Db, Gb, C

    it seems to me as a suspended chord, like Absus2...
    could be

    Gb triad with #4

    Gminmaj11b5

    Ab7sus4 with third on top

    A13b9#9 with no 7th (from diminished scale)

    Bbm9#5

    Bmaj9#15(no3)

    C7b5b9(no3)

    Dbmaj13, with 11, no 3, no 5

    Dmaj7#5b14

    D7#5 with nat 7

    Ebm13

    Emaj13#11#20 (no 3)

    F7sus4b9

    but we'll never know...

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    but we'll never know...
    We will, in context.