The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Hello,
    I know I'm asking a lot of questions here right now, but this one has been on my mind all day.
    Coming from a rock/folk/blues background, I learned everything based on shapes. I know how a chord is built in theory, and can immediately play a FMaj7 chord in a few different positions, but I couldn't immediately name the notes I'm playing. I would have to look at each finger individually for that, or go through the Fmaj scale step by step.

    I just jammed along with a piano friend yesterday, and I realized how he was able to easily find new chord voicings simply because on the piano, you can see all the chord notes immediately. He said he doesn't I know shapes, just notes. Suddenly, my approach felt very limited.
    What if I just wanted to play 3rds and 7ths? What if I wanted to find the closest II and V chords after playing the I?

    As a jazz-beginner looking at jazz guitar masters, I feel like they have constant awareness of what note they are playing where, and what they can do with it (chromatics, harmonies, lead lines, etc). From my perspective, this seems to be impossible to achieve on guitar and would require a constant conscious "mathematical" effort while playing.

    So, how do you play jazz-guitar (chords)? Based on just shapes or should I be able to create chords in my head on the fly by finding the chord notes everywhere on the fretboard?
    If it's based on shapes, how did you get that jazz-style of comping where you can work in melody lines and different voicings in such a free and quick way? Or is that all "recycled" from tunes you learned?

    Thanks again for taking the time to read another long question of mine.

    Schaine
    Last edited by Schaine; 08-30-2017 at 07:14 PM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    I got the chord knowledge (such as I do have down)
    from tunes ...
    Learning tunes chord melody
    Each new tune you learn makes you get/find
    the new grips/sounds

    I just found a new one
    (in F)
    3x333x
    5x555x
    6x666x
    8x876x
    x8756x

    I do know
    It gets easier the more you do ....

  4. #3

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    How I learned and progressed was by first learning various root based chord voicings; I.e. the standard ones one can find in any chord shape book for the major 7, minor 7, dom7, major 6the etc... starting with 6 string roots and 5th string roots. I did NOT focus what notes each finger was on but of course I did know that a minor chord was a 1, b3rd, 5, and b7 etc...

    Learning at least 4 shapes for each chord, I then went on to learn what the top note was for each chord: the note 'heard' the most in voice leading. E.g. with this shape the 3rd is the top note, for this one the 5th, for this one the 7th or b7th etc...

    This was useful also when one wants the melody note to be the top note. Next I learned the arpeggio for each of the chord shapes. Thus learning all the notes being played in a chord between the root and the top note. This is useful in soloing and also helps identify all the 3rd and 7th notes which are often stressed in solo (or b3rd and b7th for minor chords of course).

    As for creating chords in one's head without memorizing shapes; Well once one knows the notes in those basic common chords it is fairly easy to change from one chord to another; e.g. if one knows the memorized Dom7 chord shape where the top note is the 5th, and a song calls for a Dom7#5, all one has to do is move up that memorized 5th one fret. To make a maj7 chord a maj6 chord move up the 5th two frets (since the 5th is the most common note 'dropped' from a 4 note chord voicing). Of course sometimes one has to change the fingering but the overall concept is the same.
    Last edited by jameslovestal; 08-30-2017 at 09:20 PM.

  5. #4

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    You've got to know the notes, and you have to know the shapes. Unfortunately, there is no shortcut.


    Enjoy the ride!!!

  6. #5

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    Both...I know the shapes, and how to put any note I want on top.

  7. #6

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    I generally think in chord shapes along with the locations of each degree of the chord within the shape. I generally think of the chord changes in terms of degrees relative to the key (or key of the moment if there's modulation). I know the note names, but my poor old brain can't keep track of each note name of each chord in real time. I might be closer to intermediate than advanced.
    Last edited by KirkP; 08-31-2017 at 06:58 PM.

  8. #7

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    If you really progress in fretboard learning and general musical concetptions... eventually it's getting more and more intermingled... you do not think of shapes or voice leading - after all you think only of music)
    But it's probably nevr-ending travel.. the more you do it the more possibilities you find...


    But still I believe guitar is much about fingering... so at fast tempos or in comping if someone says- without any specific context: play A-7 I'd go just to one of the common shapes probably - instantly.
    I know all the notes in it without thinking.. but still the reference is the shape.

    On piano I would just play notes of the chord...

  9. #8

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    You have to start learning what each note in the chord is, relative to the root. 3rd, 5th, 7th, etc.. Then usually you study inversions, for 3 and 4 note chords, and then chord scales (that is harmonizing a scale with specific voicings type, the most common being drop 2s). For me knowing where the relative notes are is more important than knowing what the actual notes are, but not knowing the notes is going to be a hindrance at some point, so like theory, you just have to learn them and have some facility with them.

    After the shapes, the most important notes are obviously the bass of the chord, and the top/melody note. With further work, you develop your ear and theory awareness of the inner notes and their movement as well
    Last edited by Alter; 08-31-2017 at 08:02 AM.

  10. #9

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    Both, of course. You need to know 4 inversions for every string set for every chord. That's some work at the start, but it's so basic you just gotta get it over with ASAP. Then you need to know what notes are where, not just for chord altering, but for soloing.

    Mind you, there have been many great players who didn't know the note names so readily, but knew the sound of intervals really, really well. Like- "Hey man play an Ab" "huh?" "You know, the b5 of the root of the key we're in?" "Oh, you mean this?" ... )

    It is rumoured that Bird couldn't easily name notes and often relied on others to write them down. But he could hear intervals and had an astonishing memory for sounds as well as devices, lines, licks, quotes etc. Conversely, we've all known the guys (usually other instruments than gtr) who learned to read music fairly well, but who could never improvise by ear. Guess which skill set is more useful to most Jazz musicians?

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    It is rumoured that Bird couldn't easily name notes and often relied on others to write them down. But he could hear intervals and had an astonishing memory for sounds as well as devices, lines, licks, quotes etc.
    Hmm, I had the impression based on what I'd read that Bird was a competant reader and adept at theory.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Both, of course. You need to know 4 inversions for every string set for every chord. That's some work at the start, but it's so basic you just gotta get it over with ASAP. Then you need to know what notes are where, not just for chord altering, but for soloing.

    Mind you, there have been many great players who didn't know the note names so readily, but knew the sound of intervals really, really well. Like- "Hey man play an Ab" "huh?" "You know, the b5 of the root of the key we're in?" "Oh, you mean this?" ... )

    It is rumoured that Bird couldn't easily name notes and often relied on others to write them down. But he could hear intervals and had an astonishing memory for sounds as well as devices, lines, licks, quotes etc. Conversely, we've all known the guys (usually other instruments than gtr) who learned to read music fairly well, but who could never improvise by ear. Guess which skill set is more useful to most Jazz musicians?

    Everything I've heard Bird was a hell of a sightreader, but he also had the musical version of photographic memory. He was known for ticking off band leaders for showing up with the charts, but would then play whole shows not missing a note or break. None of the legends were into theory in the way people view theory today, they were more into theory for arranging. Bird's ears could get him thru anything he needed. Also said Bird didn't memorize licks, but he did have what I heard described and transition lines he used a lot to move around.

  13. #12

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    when teaching-mostly young impatient players-they ask "how do I play this or that.." and I explain the process but I then ask..do you just want to play this once-in one key-in one position?..which is then followed with .. ok how long will it take to learn it in more that one key/position..and I give an estimate-on the players ability..

    what it really comes down to is this question..."do I HAVE to.." many want to play like George Benson but don't want to work it..so they don't see the relevance in knowing four note chords in all positions on all string sets and drop voicings..their place in scale harmony..melodic patterns and fragments and cycles and the rest of the harmonic foundation

    I usually leave a hanging vision for the undecided student..do you like how your playing now..do you want to be in the same place next year..?

    yes its work to learn the fretboard to the point of not having to think about where the notes are in any key for any chord/scale..for me it was a revelation to acquire the ability-slowly--and then one day (right..after several years) it all flowed

  14. #13

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    Well, I'm certainly no master, but:

    You sort of can't get away from shapes on a guitar, as it's a visual instrument, as compared to, say, a horn where you can't see the notes as you finger them. So, may as well use them.

    Having said this, one has to think about voice-leading---where a chord is going, and how it relates to other chords in a sequence. That's way more important to me than viewing a chord as a thing in itself and trying to analyze what it 'is'.:

    As a young man I had 2 very edifying lessons with Jimmy Raney. Once, I played a little chord melody sequence (having come off studying with and hanging a lot with Chuck Wayne)---and asked him 'What do you think of THIS?'

    'That's like asking me what I think of the word "the"'.

    Know what I mean? One chord tells on the next and proceeding one, and they have no meaning unless taken together. So it's probably a mistake to think of them as isolated events...

  15. #14

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    You have to know the notes. You have to know the shapes. You have to know the correlation between the notes and the shapes. And you have to know all the permutations of the extensions and alterations of the notes and shapes.

    But when improvising I don't think anyone can really think NOTES that fast. Maybe amazing sight readers can. I read pretty well but I'm not amazing, like most lead/ride trumpet players. But those shapes are defined by the notes they symbolize.

    Quick "thinking" with improvisation is generally done through shapes. By shapes I'm not referring to "grips".


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    Last edited by henryrobinett; 09-02-2017 at 07:12 PM.

  16. #15

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    I learned grips (shapes) first, and I learned which string had the root. I learned a lot of shapes that way.

    But, as time went on, I decided to make a point of knowing the individual notes, instantly, for any chord I use, in all 12 keys, all over the neck.

    So now, even though I know shapes and often use them, there is a whole other level.

    By knowing individual notes, you can play a fragment of a chord anywhere on the neck -- and you can voice lead to a fragment of the next chord, and so forth.

    Also, you can play things for which you never learned a grip.

    For an example of a master player who seemed to rely on individual notes rather than grip, check out Jim Hall's work with Paul Desmond.

    Also, while "Freddie Greene" style is often played with grips these days, I've read that Mr. Greene played chord fragments and sometimes a single note as a "chord". I don't know if he was thinking about just playing one string in a grip or if he was thinking some other way.

    Back on the "grip" side of things -- if you see a lot of chords on the page, going by quickly, it can be an advantage to jump to a grip -- you may not have the moment you need to think things over more deeply. But, with a few repetitions of the same tune, you might find that grips are limiting.

  17. #16

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    If you learn all of your scale patterns, and each and every arpeggio and the chord built from the arpeggios within each scale pattern you'll get all the shapes you'll ever need and they're much more detailed than just grips.


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  18. #17

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    Interesting , when you all solo do you think C E F E G etc etc

    I realised I don't/can't do that at all !

    I thinking of the sounds (like singing)
    then trying to find the shapes to play them
    I think ....

  19. #18

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    I don't think C-E-F etc by note name. I think by function. Root, 3,4. I know the note names. It just takes too much time to think notes.


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  20. #19

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    Both and a bunch more stuff when practicing. In practicing harmony sometimes I think shape and sometimes I think notes and sometimes I think of other things (extensions/color, intervals, 2, 3, 4, 5 note chords?, what top voice?, what bass note?, tight or spread voicing?, chord function, voice leading, what would Wes/Sco/Pass/etc play? etc). Learning a new tune is a good time to go through this.

    But: Neither when playing: I just don't have the intellect to think at that level of detail, I play sounds I've internalized in practice and rather than try to construct chords from the rules on the fly, I instead I try to concentrate on the overall group sound, groove, form, i.e. the larger-scale musical issues.

  21. #20

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    Plus, and this is very important- merely NOTE NAMES tell you absolutely nothing. You have to know FUNCTION and PURPOSE. So you'd have to know that C is the 3rd of Ab, or min 3 of A, 2 of Bb, etc tells you what you need to know. Not the note names.


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  22. #21

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    Question 1: "What is it?"
    Question 2: "What does it do?"
    Question 3: "What does it do for me?"

  23. #22

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    Shape answers where and how.

    What is defined either by a sound or by naming and categorizing, best case scenario, both.

    When and if are answered by:

    Question 1: "What is it?"
    Question 2: "What does it do?"
    Question 3: "What does it do for me?"
    Last edited by bako; 09-03-2017 at 01:31 PM.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by destinytot
    Question 1: "What is it?"
    Question 2: "What does it do?"
    Question 3: "What does it do for me?"
    These are the questions I ask myself when considering the usefulness - or otherwise - of data (with regard to playing and preparation thereof).

    The inference here is that not all information is useful or necessary to me at any given time.

  25. #24

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    The problem with students, as I've seen it, is many of these questions can't adequately be answered until your well on the road. You simply can't see it to really know questions 1-3.


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  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    Plus, and this is very important- merely NOTE NAMES tell you absolutely nothing. You have to know FUNCTION and PURPOSE. So you'd have to know that C is the 3rd of Ab, or min 3 of A, 2 of Bb, etc tells you what you need to know. Not the note names.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I guess I'd break this down a little further.

    When I'm soloing over harmony I can "feel" (for want of a better term), I don't think about any of this.

    But, if I can't feel all the harmony, then I maintain conscious awareness of chord tones, especially as the chords change. So, for example, if the change is Dm7 to G7 (to use the simplest example) -- if, at the moment of the chord change, I happen to play a C, I'll know that I can move that to B and trace the chord movement. That's because I know that C is in a Dm7 and B is in a G7 and that movement defines the chord change. I'm aware that C is the b7 of a Dm7, and that the tonal center is C, but I deal with the interval issue by ear, not by thinking consciously as in, "oh, I'll play a b7 and move to a 3".

    Of course, maybe I didn't learn it the best way. But, I find that knowing the notes in the chords and scales I use is enough. After that, it's just trying to make up good melodic lines.