Observation, Charlie Parker and m7b5

[vintagelove]

Observation, Charlie Parker and half diminished chord


So a while back a buddy (who's a great player) was asking me how I approach playing over min7b5. Well that question popped back into my head while Parkers omnibook was sitting next to me, I thought "let's see what old Charlie has to say about it". Here's what I found.


Disclaimer, I don't think or play using chord scale theory 95% of the time. It's simply used here as a descriptor.


Over a min7b5 Charlie is very consistent. He uses (locrian) a b2 when playing over this chord. With 2 exceptions.


If the min7b5 is used on the vii (usually cycling to the vi, so in C, Bmin7b5 E7 Am) he will use both locrian nat 2, and the b2.


Unless the min7b5 is used as a iim7b5 in a major key, he will use the nat 2, which makes sense as it is the diatonic 3rd of the I chord.




There you have it, Charlie's approach to playing over half diminished chords. Do with that what you will.

[0zoro]

Cool info, thanks!

[christianm77]

Steve Coleman reckons we should think of these not as m7b5 but as related m6's.

As a lazy man, I strongly agree.

[christianm77]

Barry Harris would contextualise Charlie Parker's language as bVII dominant scale material.

Same notes, different viewpoints

[henryrobinett]

I think I'm about the only person who thinks of it mostly as a iiø of harmonic minor. But the way I play it you don't necessarily see/hear that. It's always made eminent sense to me this way.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I think I'm about the only person who thinks of it mostly as a iiø of harmonic minor. But the way I play it you don't necessarily see/hear that. It's always made eminent sense to me this way.

I think of them similarly. I think the incorporated tritone gets me thinking along those lines. I sometimes will substitute a m7b5 a tritone up or down for the original half-diminished chord either to build tension or as a launch for some lines.

[pingu]

Steve Coleman reckons we should think of these not as m7b5 but as related m6's.

As a lazy man, I strongly agree.

I do DAT too

[Flat5]

Apropos of Steve Coleman's comment, I saw a Tal Farlow instructional video where he encounters an Am7b5 and says "I just play Cm". Of course you could also play F9 ( Am7b5=Cm6=F9).

[ragman1]

It doesn't look as though Parker was doing anything particularly noteworthy with m7b5's. No reason why he should really.

Personally, I don't have a problem with them. They're either part of a major sequence or a minor one and in some respects they're interchangeable. Dm over Bm7b5 is fine.

What's not so well known is that the m7b5 is also the 7 chord in C minor so you can play C mel over Bm7b5 too although it's not so common.

Technically any scale with BDFA in it will do. C maj, A harm, D mel, C mel, all have it but so also do F# harm and A W/H dim. And there are the various subs for all those chords.

But why complicate things? Just play it in context, that's all. What an m7b5 is NOT, of course, is a diminished chord. Probably that's the most common mistake.

[christianm77]

I think I'm about the only person who thinks of it mostly as a iiø of harmonic minor. But the way I play it you don't necessarily see/hear that. It's always made eminent sense to me this way.

I dunno, I thought about it that way for a while. I mean it is, right? That's the origins of the chord functionally.

But as minor has notes that move around - 6 and 7, it's a bit more ambiguous. It's just minor key. Definitely b6 in there of course, so could be natural of harmonic minor.

Anyway, the thing I'm starting to wake up to is when you have iim7 in a minor key....

[christianm77]

Apropos of Steve Coleman's comment, I saw a Tal Farlow instructional video where he encounters an Am7b5 and says "I just play Cm". Of course you could also play F9 ( Am7b5=Cm6=F9).

really grasping the connection between m6, m7b5 and 9 (and 7alt) was quite a big deal for me.

Maximises the material you can use, right?

[matt.guitarteacher]

In addition to the raw note collections which can be played off of a single m7b5 are it's related subs/chord patterns.

For Bm7b5 as iim7b5, you can play off of its related V of Ealt.

If it's a G9: play off of its related ii7 of D min 7.

Basically ANY chord from one of the 2 related MM scales can be played off of half dim. Off of Bm7b5, you have potential access to all of those chords and can make new relationships off of them as well. If it's a vii of melodic minor, you might play off its related "ii" of F#m7b5. If it's a vi of melodic minor, you might play off its related ii-V of Em7b5 to B7alt etc., each with its own melodic minor reference or other scales etc.

More than that for sure, But that's the beginnings of finding where a lot of the blue notes are.

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[ragman1]

Dm7b5 - G7 - CM7 is the start of Night And Day...

[christianm77]

The original changes were Abmaj7 G7(b9) C, which teaches us another link...

But I'm kind of conflicted. I used to group chords into three categories

Passive (do not contain a tritone)
Cmaj7 --> D9sus4 --> Am7

Active (contain a tritone.)
D9 --> F#m7b5 --> Am6 --> Ab7alt
(also Cmaj7#11(no 5th))

Super-active (contain two tritones.)
F#o7-->D7b9 etc

Passive chord are broadly speaking, resolved, while active and super active chords demand resolution. Notice you could view Passive as dorian derived and active as melodic minor derived (though not necessarily.) You can also learn to play everything with three types of arpeggio or voicing - m7, m7b5 and o7. I have a video on it actually. Works really well for old school swing and bop.

But it's not so cut and dried. Basically everything runs into everything else. The fact that you can use Abmaj7 on Dm7b5 means that the active and passive domains are always bleeding into each other. Also - when is a D/C a dominant (active) chord and when is it a tonic (passive) style chord?

A bit of a digression - but here's something I notice about scale use. Minor scales - melodic minor and dorian aren't really that super independent in most old school stuff - it's more like 'generic minor with a natural 6/13.'

However post-Berklee players tend to play the crap out of the natural 7th of the MM scale so we get - I suppose - the characteristic note of those modes. I always liked Charlie Christian's term 'worry notes'. CC's worry notes were most often the 6 of the m6 chord (9th on dominant) while many modern/contemporary player's worry note is the 7th (#11 on dominant) - so to speak. (Triad pairs, US triads etc are a way of accessing these of course.)

For example, listen to Lage Lund play Limehouse Blues, a tune with quite a few non resolving 7's and implied 7#11 tonalities. His playing is very bebop but also has what I think of as a Berklee CST accent. Earlier players (this is a very old tune) would tend not to be so explicit about playing #11 as a harmonic sound, and if they did, might be more whole tone influenced.

Anyway I digress. Best way to train your ear is always to listen to what players do.

[pingu]

I do DAT too

I just realised , on a minor ii V7alt i

On the ii I often just play one minor stuff

ie I play 'in' on the ii
'out' on the V
and back 'in' on the one minor ....

Kinda works (for me)

[henryrobinett]

I dunno, I thought about it that way for a while. I mean it is, right? That's the origins of the chord functionally.

But as minor has notes that move around - 6 and 7, it's a bit more ambiguous. It's just minor key. Definitely b6 in there of course, so could be natural of harmonic minor.

Anyway, the thing I'm starting to wake up to is when you have iim7 in a minor key....

For me, I like to simplify. When m7b5 is followed by a dominant, especially b9, +5, I think of it iiø - V. So I've worked out all 7 of my harmonic minors out with arpeggios many, many years ago. Once I've simplified it I can always "substitute" as a natural 2 as a vi of melodic minor, or locrian, which generally I don't like the sound of, unless it really is that function. But I like to keep the function simple and unaltered so I can alter to my hearts content, with no overthinking involved.

[christianm77]

I just realised , on a minor ii V7alt i

On the ii I often just play one minor stuff

ie I play 'in' on the ii
'out' on the V
and back 'in' on the one minor ....

Kinda works (for me)

Looking at Mobley on if I Should Lose You. Beautiful descending D harmonic minor scale starting on beat 4 pickup on Bb and leading through the Em7b5 A7(b9) until it hits the F on the Dm chord. Simple, but perfect. So:

Bb A | G F E D C# Bb A G | F

The Bb, G and E are chord tones of Em7b5. So you play the iim7b5 as - as Henry has it - the II chord in D harmonic minor. Duh

Perversely, perhaps, Barry fans would view this as playing the C7 scale from 7 down to the third of A7 and then keep going I guess! The chord tones are also C7 chord tones.

Bach would have done the same, of course.

(Later on he plays C (4) going to B natural (3) on the G7 - descending passing tone and then G# (#4) going to 5 on the C7 (ignoring the ii chords). This, to me is typical - 4 (b7 of the important minor) used as a downward passing tone, and #4 (7 of the important minor) ascending passing tone. I find this quite typical.

So MM/Dorian is depending on direction a lot of the time during the 'functional' era.)

[EGad]

I think I'm about the only person who thinks of it mostly as a iiø of harmonic minor. But the way I play it you don't necessarily see/hear that. It's always made eminent sense to me this way.

No, you're not. I'm with you.

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[jordanklemons]

Man, I have too many ways to approach it to count. Mostly all based on triads, with other notes/scales built around them.

Over Dhalfdim7 (depending on the situation)

*D diminished triad
Usually I'll start just by adding the 4th -G- which yields some really nice D minor blues sounding ideas... and then from there can add other notes if desires... b7, 11, etc

*F minor triad
Again usually adding the 4th - Bb - first which also yields very bluesy lines but now built around the F note (still the 1-b3-4-b5 type stuff like above, but now you get the natural 5 also... more notes could be added depending on key, melody, and context

*G minor and Bb major triads both work
(you can hear both of these at play melodically over the Dhalfdim7 in blue bossa. Similar to what Christian is talking about with the relationship between Bb9, Dhalfdim7, and F-6)

*C minor triad
This is a cool one. Not necessarily harmonic minor, I usually avoid the 7 in this situation, though you could add it in... both the natural and the raised 7th of C minor work. I generally start by just adding the 4th - F - against the C minor triad. Again, this opens up the C minor blues ideas. In fact, F# (the Major 3rd of the Dhalfdim7 chord) actually functions as the blues note in this context. Pretty hip little sound. Great for just getting straight into the dirty blues sounds or in keeping an entire ii V7 i in the key of C into a more diatonic or soulful thing.

*C major triad
One of my go to's when I want that natural 9/11 sound over a half dim. I usually add the 4th and the b6 of the triad against it and use that as a pentatonic scale. So over a Dhalfdim11 I might play C-E-F-G-Ab... obviously other notes could be added. But it's a great sound to throw in if there's a nat 9... or even just if the melody resolves to the 11. For instance in Stella (assuming I want to use the Ehalfdim to A7 instead of the diminished chord), I might play the Bb pickup note and follow it with a voicing like 0x8775 (notice the D major triad on the top 3 strings)

*As for Parker's use... I'm no scholar. But I will say..
I've always found it interesting and fun that he uses the natural 5th - B - over the Ehalfdim in Blues for Alice. I kind of want to go and study the comping behind him on some of those old recordings. Has anyone else ever noticed that note? Or taken the time to see exactly what chords the piano players were using there? It's interesting, he plays the B natural note, then resolves that B natural down to the Bb over the A7, and then resolves that down to the A over Dmin. So we get the C note in the first measure (over F) followed by a really nicely hidden chromatic line, C-B-Bb-A.

[Stevebol]

Man, I have too many ways to approach it to count. Mostly all based on triads, with other notes/scales built around them.

Over Dhalfdim7 (depending on the situation)

*D diminished triad
Usually I'll start just by adding the 4th -G- which yields some really nice D minor blues sounding ideas... and then from there can add other notes if desires... b7, 11, etc

*F minor triad
Again usually adding the 4th - Bb - first which also yields very bluesy lines but now built around the F note (still the 1-b3-4-b5 type stuff like above, but now you get the natural 5 also... more notes could be added depending on key, melody, and context

*G minor and Bb major triads both work
(you can hear both of these at play melodically over the Dhalfdim7 in blue bossa. Similar to what Christian is talking about with the relationship between Bb9, Dhalfdim7, and F-6)

*C minor triad
This is a cool one. Not necessarily harmonic minor, I usually avoid the 7 in this situation, though you could add it in... both the natural and the raised 7th of C minor work. I generally start by just adding the 4th - F - against the C minor triad. Again, this opens up the C minor blues ideas. In fact, F# (the Major 3rd of the Dhalfdim7 chord) actually functions as the blues note in this context. Pretty hip little sound. Great for just getting straight into the dirty blues sounds or in keeping an entire ii V7 i in the key of C into a more diatonic or soulful thing.

*C major triad
One of my go to's when I want that natural 9/11 sound over a half dim. I usually add the 4th and the b6 of the triad against it and use that as a pentatonic scale. So over a Dhalfdim11 I might play C-E-F-G-Ab... obviously other notes could be added. But it's a great sound to throw in if there's a nat 9... or even just if the melody resolves to the 11. For instance in Stella (assuming I want to use the Ehalfdim to A7 instead of the diminished chord), I might play the Bb pickup note and follow it with a voicing like 0x8775 (notice the D major triad on the top 3 strings)

*As for Parker's use... I'm no scholar. But I will say..
I've always found it interesting and fun that he uses the natural 5th - B - over the Ehalfdim in Blues for Alice. I kind of want to go and study the comping behind him on some of those old recordings. Has anyone else ever noticed that note? Or taken the time to see exactly what chords the piano players were using there? It's interesting, he plays the B natural note, then resolves that B natural down to the Bb over the A7, and then resolves that down to the A over Dmin. So we get the C note in the first measure (over F) followed by a really nicely hidden chromatic line, C-B-Bb-A.

Yes.
Besides the descending chromatic C-B-Bb-A7 there's a descending half-dim F-E-D-Db too.

[christianm77]

@Jordan re: Parker... Yes I have and that's a bloody good point. I'll try and have a listen. I can tell you the first piano chord is an F triad.

It was really not unusual for players of the 30s and 40s to use a natural 6th of the minor key when tonicising a minor chord. For instance a B in the key of Dm. Charlie Christian is a case in point - I would check out his solo on I Found a New Baby for several key examples. He plays A9 into Dm6 every time iirc. He even plays the A dominant/mixolydian scale in the last A.

(Often he uses a IIm6 sound on the V7 to do this. So he plays IIm6 Im6.)

Now Barry Harris is of the mind that Parker usually played over the dominant (albeit often substituted) and that the ii chord was a suspension played only by the accompanist. In his thinking you could say that Parker was ignoring the Em7b5 and just expressing A7 perhaps by using an Em6. What the piano does is not necessarily exactly related.

So in this case Parker expressing A9 into Dm could be seen as a Em7 A9 Dm type thang.

Anyway some listening ought to be instructive.

Btw another example of this V9 into minor sound occurs in the second half of Donna Lee.

Anyway I should play around with the V9 into Im thing. It's another sound.

[pcsanwald]

It was really not unusual for players of the 30s and 40s to use a natural 6th of the minor key when tonicising a minor chord. For instance a B in the key of Dm. Charlie Christian is a case in point - I would check out his solo on I Found a New Baby for several key examples. He plays A9 into Dm6 every time iirc. He even plays the A dominant/mixolydian scale in the last A.

Lester Young, too, uses the same language as Christian. My first real jazz teacher (a Tristano student) was adamant about coloring tonic minors with either 6 or (very occasionally) M7. To this day it still weirds me out to hear someone play a m7 on a tonic chord in a tune.

[henryrobinett]

Players sometimes, depends, are ambivalent about the b5 or natural 5. Sometimes it's just not that important. I've played with great piano players, some well know guys, and I'll ask whether that chord (whatever song. I can't remember) was halfDim or just minor. Both of them shrugged. Played both and sheepishly said they didn't know. They just play it when it gets there and decide.

That said I really nosy often play the halfdim as a din TRIAD, since those are the defining tones. Most often the 7 resolves to the 3rd of the V. Lower chrom neighbors a lot. Minor triad from the min 3. Sus triad sometimes ignored b5, or sus from the 4. Man triad or b5 triad from the Tritone. But Jordan got me going.


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[henryrobinett]

Mingus and Duke used to throw the maj7 on a dominant in the melody. There's a great Shorter tune - Dance Cadavers? Witch Hunt? That throws the M7 on a dominant to great effect.


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[christianm77]

Players sometimes, depends, are ambivalent about the b5 or natural 5. Sometimes it's just not that important. I've played with great piano players, some well know guys, and I'll ask whether that chord (whatever song. I can't remember) was halfDim or just minor. Both of them shrugged. Played both and sheepishly said they didn't know. They just play it when it gets there and decide.

That said I really nosy often play the halfdim as a din TRIAD, since those are the defining tones. Most often the 7 resolves to the 3rd of the V. Lower chrom neighbors a lot. Minor triad from the min 3. Sus triad sometimes ignored b5, or sus from the 4. Man triad or b5 triad from the Tritone. But Jordan got me going.


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Well I remember Barry Harris said that any major ii-v can be turned into a minor ii-v - this is something I abuse to death - and I realise that the opposite is true also.

TBH these guys were far too busy playing music to get caught up in the niceties of the chord symbols which were always only a simplification.