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Hello everyone,
this might be a long piece of text, I'm sorry in advance.
I'm mostly a blues-rock musician, however in my attempt to get a more serious with the art, I'm trying to get at least fundamental knowledge of the most important genres of music. I arrived at Jazz now because I don't want to be the guy at a jam session that doesn't know the changes to autumn leaves, while everyone else is having a great time
Helps that I really enjoy most jazz music too and I love improvisation in all genres.
So back to topic:
I know that Jazz is taught mostly through learning from the greats, so I watched a YouTube video on basic Jazz standards everyone should know. The first suggestion by the author (Aimee Nolte) was "Take the A Train" by Duke Ellington. I'm working on my ears right now, so i want to learn everything from recordings.
To put things lightly, I fell on my mouth quickly, and I'm a little surprised.
I know music theory to the extent that i know how chords are created, how scales are harmonized into chords and I know about intervals (can hear most of them with certainty) and chord functions, modes and the circle of fifths. I know where to find all those things on the fretboard of my guitar. Some other random knowledge from books and videos aswell.
I was able to hear that "Take the A Train" was in C major, I heard that it was based around I II V chords (at least section A) but i failed at making out the exact chords (except for the tonic resolutions). Frustrated, I looked at sheet music and realized that there was no way i could have learned it by ear.
The progression im talking about afaik: Cmaj7 \ D7(#11) \ Dm7 \ G7 \ Cmaj7
I heard that C, D, and G were root notes. But I would never have gotten the idea to play a D7 chord in C major, considering that "regular" harmonization in Cmaj leads to Dm chords, and the "regular" II V I would be Dm7, G7, Cmaj7 right?
This made me realize that my knowledge of music theory is not enough to help me figure out chord changes, actually it hurts because I try to make sense of what i hear through it.
Now that that's out of the way: What would you recommend as prequisites to learning jazz standards? I don't feel ready to learn them with any kind of certainty/self esteem now. I can't hear 9s, or 11s in chords, i can hardly make out a maj7 from min7 chord if there is a lot of instrumentation going on. Should I train my ears first? How do I do that without learning songs that use 9s and 11s and so on? Should I get to the point where a D7(#11) makes sense to me in C major as far as music theory goes? Please help
Thanks in advance.
Schaine
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06-29-2017 12:02 PM
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I suggest getting a Real Book and working through it. I know that's reading and not listening (!), but there's no sense in struggling to work out odd chords by ear when you have no idea what they might be in the first place.
Your current problem is that you are using a very basic level of theory as a crutch, to help you predict the chords that (the theory suggests) "ought" to be there. Just remember: theory is descriptive, not prescriptive. It describes "common practices". You have to read a lot of theory to get descriptions of all the common practices out there, and there are still the occasional uncommon ones that are only in the biggest theory books....
The first piece of additional theory (a very common practice) you need to be aware of in jazz - maybe even before you start reading Real Books - is secondary dominants. It means that any chord in a key can be preceded by its own V7 chord. So in key of C major, you can have (and jazz tunes almost certainly will have) any or all of these:
D7 - leads to G7
A7 - leads to Dm7
E7 - leads to Am7
B7 - leads to Em7
C7 - leads to Fmaj7
It's also likely that any of those will be preceded by the appropriate ii chord. So rather than just A7-Dm7 you may well see Em7b5-A7-Dm7. Em7b5, notice, not Em7, because Em7b5 would be the natural ii chord in D minor - the idea being to prepare the ear to hear the upcoming Dm chord. Em7-A7 would lead us to expect D major.
But don't expect a ii-V to always lead to its I. Sometimes a ii-V just goes to another ii-V, eg Em7b5-A7-Am7-D7.
Next useful piece of jazz theory: secondary dim7s ("secondary leading tone chords" if you want the full jargon). Any of those dom7 chords can be replaced with a dim7 built on its 3rd:
F#dim7 - leads to G7
C#dim7 - leads to Dm7
G#dim7 - leads to Am7
D#dim7 - leads to Em7
Edim7 - leads to Fmaj7
(and Bdim7 leads to Cmaj7)
Useful piece of jazz theory #3: tritone substitution. Any dom7 acting as a V chord (including the primary dominant) can be replaced with a dom7 rooted a tritone away. So - still in key of C major:
Ab7 - leads to G7
Eb7 - leads to Dm7
Bb7 - leads to Am7
F7 - leads to Em7
Gb7 - leads to Fmaj7
Db7 - leads to Cmaj7
Tritone subs work, btw, because of the shared tritone between 3rd and 7th. D7 has F#-C, Ab7 has Gb-C - spelled different but sounds the same. The tritone itself resolves by half-step as usual, and the tritone sub adds additional half-step moves downward.
Again, you might well see ii chords inserted before those, such as Abm7-Db7 to lead to Cmaj7.
But still - a Real Book is your best teacher here. This theory is only to prepare you (somewhat) for what you will see (and hear) in most jazz standards. You can find chord sequences for standards free online (see below), but learning the melodies is absolutely crucial - and you need to pay money (sooner or later) to read melodies.
Of course, you could knuckle down to that ear training, and work melodies out by ear. Saves money and also makes a good aural workout. (Just melodies, to begin with, not solos. Learn solos later, at least if you find solos that excite you.)
Free chord progression sites:
http://www.jazzstudies.us/
Index (simplified versions)
The original (illegal but ubiquitous, now apparently legalized) Real Book: The Real Book – Volume I, Real Book Series - Hal Leonard Online
Oh yes - last but not least - the other jazz pre-requisite: learn notation, well enough to read melodies at least. Otherwise you really are dependent on that ear....
The importance of melody, btw, is the language it gives you for improvisation. Traditional jazz practice was always embellish the melody - that's where improvisation starts.
For jazz soloing, think rhythm first, melody second. Think chord tones and voice-leading (melodic and chromatic movement from chord to chord), not scales. Be guided by the chords.Last edited by JonR; 07-02-2017 at 12:49 PM.
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This is what I was advised early on, and the longer I ignored the advice the more I realized how true it was:
1) The melody is king. Learn the melody first.
2) Only look at the basic triads when learning the tune. Maj, min, dim, or augmented. Don't try to "hear" the #11 (or whatnot).
3) play it straight until tears of boredom stream down your face. Only then are you ready to improvise.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Just one thing I'd add to JonR's excellent post (that post was pure gold, he covered a lot of territory in one short post).
I'd add that in Jazz the musicians will often play the changes differently from time to time and musician to musician. The changes in the Real Book might not line up with the particular recording you are using as the transcriber may have transcribed the tune from a different performance.
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Although John R's post was useful in most respects, the excerpt above is an example of a gross simplification that you will probably not fully understand. Yes, chord tones are more important than scales in the Jazz language, but learning how to address these chord tones stylistically is what will confuse you for many years. Ask any rock/blues player that has tried to transition into Jazz! (without the guidance of a good teacher).
Originally Posted by JonR
One thing I can promise you is that you will not find the answers to all your questions on a forum, youtube video, magazine article or even a stack of books. All of the above might help, or may just confuse and distract you. The reason is that you need to put in thousands of hours of shedding to acquire basic tools, only to realise you have spent too much time on some, and not enough on others. This is compared with only the dozens of hours it took you to get ok at rock/blues. Many of us have come to Jazz the same way, and we have all made the mistake of thinking that the transition would be far easier than it turned out to be. I mention this not to put you off, but to offer encouragement and support so that you don't give up at the first hurdle (most will).
The best advice you will read on here is that a good teacher will save you years of wasted practice. It's also important to realise that every single Jazz guitar teacher in the world will teach you different things and focus way more on some things than others, including things that you will find out later that you didn't want or need to know for what you're going for. Every teacher will contradict the teachings of just about every other teacher to reflect their own personal path. It's not like learning a Classical instrument where the pedagogy is more or less consistent.
But it's a journey of self discovery and evolving tastes where the rewards are incredibly hard won and slow in coming. It's about becoming a true Musician, and not someone who just knows a few finger patterns on an instrument.
On the other hand.... if all you want to do is learn a few standards and bluff your way through soloing against Autumn Leaves, then you can do worse than going to the Lesson section on this Forum. When I tell rock/blues players that Jazz proficiency is one hundred times harder than rock/blues proficiency (not talking mastery), they always think I'm exaggerating, and of course I am, it's more like a thousand times harder!
Good luck (seriously
).
Last edited by princeplanet; 07-02-2017 at 02:23 PM.
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Another approach: Don't worry about the theory, learn lots of tunes and look for patterns. Originally Posted by Schaine
Hello everyone,
this might be a long piece of text, I'm sorry in advance.
I'm mostly a blues-rock musician, however in my attempt to get a more serious with the art, I'm trying to get at least fundamental knowledge of the most important genres of music. I arrived at Jazz now because I don't want to be the guy at a jam session that doesn't know the changes to autumn leaves, while everyone else is having a great time Helps that I really enjoy most jazz music too and I love improvisation in all genres.
So back to topic:
I know that Jazz is taught mostly through learning from the greats, so I watched a YouTube video on basic Jazz standards everyone should know. The first suggestion by the author (Aimee Nolte) was "Take the A Train" by Duke Ellington. I'm working on my ears right now, so i want to learn everything from recordings.
To put things lightly, I fell on my mouth quickly, and I'm a little surprised.
I know music theory to the extent that i know how chords are created, how scales are harmonized into chords and I know about intervals (can hear most of them with certainty) and chord functions, modes and the circle of fifths. I know where to find all those things on the fretboard of my guitar. Some other random knowledge from books and videos aswell.
I was able to hear that "Take the A Train" was in C major, I heard that it was based around I II V chords (at least section A) but i failed at making out the exact chords (except for the tonic resolutions). Frustrated, I looked at sheet music and realized that there was no way i could have learned it by ear.
The progression im talking about afaik: Cmaj7 \ D7(#11) \ Dm7 \ G7 \ Cmaj7
I heard that C, D, and G were root notes. But I would never have gotten the idea to play a D7 chord in C major, considering that "regular" harmonization in Cmaj leads to Dm chords, and the "regular" II V I would be Dm7, G7, Cmaj7 right?
This made me realize that my knowledge of music theory is not enough to help me figure out chord changes, actually it hurts because I try to make sense of what i hear through it.
Now that that's out of the way: What would you recommend as prequisites to learning jazz standards? I don't feel ready to learn them with any kind of certainty/self esteem now. I can't hear 9s, or 11s in chords, i can hardly make out a maj7 from min7 chord if there is a lot of instrumentation going on. Should I train my ears first? How do I do that without learning songs that use 9s and 11s and so on? Should I get to the point where a D7(#11) makes sense to me in C major as far as music theory goes? Please help
Thanks in advance.
Schaine
Unless you are completely thick, you will start to see them.Last edited by christianm77; 07-02-2017 at 02:32 PM.
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Thanks for all the replies. Especially to those who took a lot of time of their day to write an close to an essay
I think my issue is that Jazz is not my end-goal. I enjoy it, but I know that my artistic goal won't be a traditional jazz-band. However, I think knowledge of Jazz is beneficial to all genres and can be woven into a lot of stuff.
I guess I will buy a Real Book, and learn the theory along with the songs. Starting Ear-Training and Jazz-Theory at the same time might be a bit too much. I have a teacher that knows Jazz well, so I will have some guidance.
This really cleared things up for me a lot, so thanks again.
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Partly you are right the more you know the better you recognize it...I heard that C, D, and G were root notes. But I would never have gotten the idea to play a D7 chord in C major, considering that "regular" harmonization in Cmaj leads to Dm chords, and the "regular" II V I would be Dm7, G7, Cmaj7 right?
This made me realize that my knowledge of music theory is not enough to help me figure out chord changes, actually it hurts because I try to make sense of what i hear through it.
there's an anecdote about young Mozart when he came back from performance and wrote down a complete score of a big piece he heard... of course he had very good musical memory.. but partly it was because he knew and understood very well the logics and the musical language that this music used...
In general all he had to memorize was a melody and texture (which was often also very typical) and maybe some moments of form (like cadences, modulations) but for an experienced musicians these are also 'hidden' in the melody...
So what i am trying to say is that the better you know the language the easier it is to hear things...
But.. trad jazz standards are not so complex as symphonic music... usually they are simple forms based on relatively simple harmony..
So why dont you just try to hear thing without any theoretical reference? - and after that maybe you could try to figure out how it can be explaine - so that next time you do not do the same job again...
I am sure you could come up with D in the bass and F# after all... actually not so many choices are there...
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Let's take that situation. You got the Cmaj. If you listened to the bass note, you got the D.
Next question is, what kind of D?
You probably could tell that it wasn't a minor. If you played an F# along with it, it would sound consonant, meaning, in effect, that it wasn't a minor or a sus.
You can probably hear that it had a b7 -- that is, it wasn't a Dmaj7.
Then, if you tried to play an A against it, you could tell that it had something other than a natural 5th.
So this was your introduction to the 7#11. If you flip through the Real Book, you'll find other tunes with that chord. Desafinado, second chord, for example. It's the same progression (for those two chords). Play it in every key. Next time you hear it, you'll know what it is.
You'll end up doing this for a large number of sounds as you get more into this music.
You will all kinds of different advice re theory. My experience is that it can be helpful, but there are limits. Way too much for this post. It is worthwhile to remember that there are great players who are encyclopedic about theory and great players who know absolutely no theory at all (they do know the sounds and how to make them e.g. Andres Varady).
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[QUOTE=Schaine;785196]
I think my issue is that Jazz is not my end-goal. I enjoy it, but I know that my artistic goal won't be a traditional jazz-band. /QUOTE]
Yeah, that was me too. But as I realized I needed to really learn a melody to be able to play instrumental music, i began listening and learning these old tunes. The more I did, the more I began to dig them. By comparison, doing the same close listening to some of my favorite pop/rock tunes was an embarrassing disappointment.
You may be surprised, all's im saying...
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Be able to sing everything (scales, arpeggios, tunes (the heads), licks, transcribed solo, etc. That way you will truly internalize what you hear. There will be no gaps in your understanding. All you have to do is give everything a name (theory). It's not that complicated if you are willing to put in a lot of time and effort to listen to the music. If you skip this step, you will have a hell of a time learning jazz!
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Something no one has mentioned but was really important for me: transcribe bass lines. start simple, with the benny goodman recordings that feature charlie christian on guitar. or, transcribe some walter page playing with basie and lester young.
learning melodies was always really, really easy for me, but picking up the harmony to tunes didn't come easy for me until I learned to hear the bass note under the melody note. and bass lines are a specific thing that you can write down, and aren't nearly as daunting as transcribing piano voicings (for me).
once you know the top note and the bottom note, learning the way jazz musicians fill in harmonic space will make more sense.
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Jazz harmony is a language like anything else. You learn the syntax and vocabulary, and once you have the lay of the land you can speak---and hopefully add your own 'words'.
As far as your confusion on Strayhorn's tune, even classical harmony 'borrows': a II chord can be dominant and thought of as a V of V. They're only patterns, and within the same key many interesting things can happen, like bIII or bVI chords---or going to the parallel minor. It bends the ear a tad and deviates from the Plain Jane options that can get tiresome---w/o leaving the key.
I think you're on the right track listening rather than reading, though it's important to read for many reasons. That's also a language, and we use a different part of our brains reading. I spent many hours playing w/records. It's as close as you can get to playing w/the group, you're learning the language in real time, and IN time. Just great ear-training---plus, unlike playing the tunes live on a gig, you can stop and go over things.
PLEASE DON'T use the Real Book, unless you're stuck. Though it has improved over the years it is riddled w/mistakes. I don't know if they have the composers' lead sheets or transcribe---but they do a pretty poor job IMO. You don't want to be branded a 'Real Book player'. The woods are full of those, passing along misinformation, and musicians in the know always look down on them.
When you want to learn ANYTHING, always go to the source. A Train: go to an Ellington recording. Standards, get a non-jazz singer like Doris Day who will sing the correct melody. Try to get a composer's version, if possible. (For example, there are piano roll recordings of Gershwin playing I Got Rhythm). Internalize it by singing it yourself many times, then write your own lead sheet. At your level I recommend starting with easier tunes like There is no Greater Love or You'll Never Know. They stay in the key and you need to start slow and build up chops and confidence.
Hope this helps a little...
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before i started playing out a lot i was very nervous about not being able to 'lug' the tune from the record
after playing selections from the same fifty-ish tunes for five or so years most nights i wasn't so nervous about it (though i still couldn't do it really well)
after another five years it was better still
i never used books in gigs i just used them to learn the tune in the first place
play the bass notes of the chords to accompany yourself singing the melody - before you let it all get too complicated. make every tune as easy to internalize as you can.
i started listening to charlie parker and sonny rollins - and i ended up listening more often to tony bennett and frank sinatra (getting into the words - getting into the melodies as SONGS - helps to 'internalize' it all)
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In learning songs by ear, your lessons are the sounds of the songs themselves.
There are lots of methods that promote naming things which use verbal strategies to represent music, but you must eventually realize that music itself is not verbal; it is aural and needs to be grasped through the way it sounds.
If it seems uncomfortable to think of music without using names for things, it may help your motivation to consider the idea that giving everything a name defeats the purpose of music being a language on its own.
Last edited by pauln; 07-13-2017 at 08:32 PM.
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Excellent advice. When I first started to roll outta rock/blues and into jazz I wanted to just slam thru the melody and improvise. Of course, that was beyond stupid, and the results were worse than terrible. There's a gigantic leap, least was and is for me still, beyond learning melody and playing over changes. But without the former, the latter will suck. Completely. I've taught and played for a long time, continue to study with a major dude (step...by...step) yet when we go thru a new tune in the Real Book and I start to noodle over the changes, he stops me dead -- WTF you doing?! Yeah, learn that damn melody until the tears burn your cheeks. Then, and only then, start fucking around.
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Yabut, if I'm learning a new language, isn't it useful to have useful bridges? Originally Posted by pauln
In learning songs by ear, your lessons are the sounds of the songs themselves.
There are lots of methods that promote naming things which use verbal strategies to represent music, but you must eventually realize that music itself is not verbal; it is aural and needs to be grasped through the way it sounds.
If it seems uncomfortable to think of music without using names for things, it may help your motivation to consider the idea that giving everything a name defeats the purpose of music being a language on its own.
I agree with your larger point, that the ears are more important than your eyes, but those ears need to be trained somehow, and conceptualization need not be a bad thing.
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I totaly agree... Originally Posted by pauln
In learning songs by ear, your lessons are the sounds of the songs themselves.
There are lots of methods that promote naming things which use verbal strategies to represent music, but you must eventually realize that music itself is not verbal; it is aural and needs to be grasped through the way it sounds.
If it seems uncomfortable to think of music without using names for things, it may help your motivation to consider the idea that giving everything a name defeats the purpose of music being a language on its own.
But music is cultural thing (as any art) and culture refers to many aspects of perception.
Sounds are just sounds, but music is meanings.
It's like watching a painting we do not see just colours, we see relations, proportions, compositions, subjects after all (if there are any)
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