When did Jazz Musicians start using the altered scale?

[christianm77]

So - Gil Evans and Miles (and Bill) are obviously coming out of the Impressionist harmony thing to some extent. So Ravel is in fact really important as a link - if he did in fact use the altered scale, then that would be an obvious source for it. However, it seems a bit tough to find a specific example.

It's frustrating though because typing in 'whole tone scale Debussy' gives a musical example out of youtube immediately. Obviously it would be helpful for this discussion for the same thing to be true of 'altered scale Ravel' - but it is not.

But - how lazy we have all become haha! Remember the days when you'd have to dig out a theory book and some scores (and for jazz, transcribe phrases from a record.) We'd all learn more that way for sure.

Of course, what I should probably do is sit down with some Ravel and really go into some detail with his music in general.

Rather annoyingly I have to subscribe to a course to watch this video all the way through:

https://www.coursera.org/learn/strin...ussy-and-ravel

[christianm77]

Here's a bit on Ravel's use of diminished scales (on page 2)

Ravel, Quatour pour intruments a cordes, First Movement

And the use of Mode V of the melodic minor

What is the name of this scale Ravel uses? : musictheory

[ragman1]

So what?

No, that was Miles Davis, I believe.

What did Ravel write?

He wrote this sort of thing.

Ravel, Quatour pour intruments a cordes, First Movement

Seems to me your question has to be answered by a specialist in Debussy's music, if not a music history expert, so you're probably asking the wrong people here. We're just trying to help out...

As far as I know, Berklee is a reputable music/jazz school not given to printing bullshit disinformation. As I said, if you think they've got it wrong you could always get in touch with them. Their article is copywrited to them (see small print, bottom of page).

Alternatively, you'll also see the full quote in the article is

'The altered scale appears sporadically in the works of Debussy and Ravel (Tymoczko 1997)'

This Tymoczko isn't dead or anything (I googled for you and looked him up) he's young, active, and a composer and music theorist who teaches at Princeton University. There's every chance he'd be able to answer your question.

dmitri.tymoczko.com

Or, of course, you could simply carry on groping about in the dark :-)

[christianm77]

No, that was Miles Davis, I believe.



He wrote this sort of thing.

Ravel, Quatour pour intruments a cordes, First Movement

I should really spend some time with this work, I'm sure I'd learn loads.

Seems to me your question has to be answered by a specialist in Debussy's music, if not a music history expert, so you're probably asking the wrong people here. We're just trying to help out...

As far as I know, Berklee is a reputable music/jazz school not given to printing bullshit disinformation. As I said, if you think they've got it wrong you could always get in touch with them. Their article is copywrited to them (see small print, bottom of page).

Aha! An appeal to authority.

Berklee and bullshit? Haha, don't go there. Really don't. That's a whole world'o'flame.

Anyway, Berklee - yes, those guys are great at what they do, but I'm asking a very specific question, one which probably has more to do with sheer Nerdery than actual music making. And I perfectly understand someone going 'that's the nerdiest most boring shit ever I'm out of here' - but if you are in here and interested to find out, we need actual examples that would stand up in court. :-)

It's quite possible no-one at Berklee has ever asked this question, because they are probably to busy educating the next wave of musicians to play the current common practice.

So - the theory people at Berklee teach the Berklee syllabus. AFAIK they'd probably tell you not to write F# on G7, which is probably good advice when you are 18 and getting it together on changes, but this information does not represent actual jazz practice pre Berklee. And so on.

In more recent terms Kreisberg talks about his fondness for chords (such as drop 3, 2nd inversion major 7th) that would be frowned on by his arranging teacher, and so on.

Also there is a strong question on whether Berklee's excellence is to do with it's syllabus or the excellence of its faculty and students. I daresay getting full marks on a Berklee harmony exam is probably of lesser importance than the other stuff.

Anyway I digress...

Alternatively, you'll also see the full quote in the article is

'The altered scale appears sporadically in the works of Debussy and Ravel (Tymoczko 1997)'

This Tymoczko isn't dead or anything (I googled for you and looked him up) he's young, active, and a composer and music theorist who teaches at Princeton University. There's every chance he'd be able to answer your question.

dmitri.tymoczko.com

Or, of course, you could simply carry on groping about in the dark :-)

Here is one of the papers cited in the Berklee wiki. How far can you get with it?

http://dmitri.mycpanel.princeton.edu/files/publications/debussy.pdf

You page number gets mine :-) When he starts getting to 'scale lattices', yes, my bullshit detector starts to go off. I'm sure I can pick through it - but I really cannot be arsed at this point.

I'm not trying to be willfully obtuse and neither am I demanding you do my research for me.

It's more that I feel that if Ravel does use the altered sound - and why wouldn't he - it should be simpler to pin down than going into scale lattices whatever the fuck they are. You should be able to see them in the score and hear them in the music.

You want an example of a whole tone scale in Debussy - EASY.

Maybe it's a terminology thing?

[ragman1]

I've no idea. Try Tymoczko :-)

[PMB]

So - Gil Evans and Miles (and Bill) are obviously coming out of the Impressionist harmony thing to some extent. So Ravel is in fact really important as a link - if he did in fact use the altered scale, then that would be an obvious source for it. However, it seems a bit tough to find a specific example.

It's frustrating though because typing in 'whole tone scale Debussy' gives a musical example out of youtube immediately. Obviously it would be helpful for this discussion for the same thing to be true of 'altered scale Ravel' - but it is not.

But - how lazy we have all become haha! Remember the days when you'd have to dig out a theory book and some scores (and for jazz, transcribe phrases from a record.) We'd all learn more that way for sure.

Of course, what I should probably do is sit down with some Ravel and really go into some detail with his music in general.

Rather annoyingly I have to subscribe to a course to watch this video all the way through:

https://www.coursera.org/learn/strin...ussy-and-ravel

Besides Gil, Bill and Miles, Jobim no doubt came into the mix after his arrival in the US (1962). By his own admission, Jobim was much more affected early on by Debussy than by jazz and credited all the altered chords and extensions in his own music to Debussy's example rather than to bebop. In fact, he mentions in an interview with Almir Chediak that access to jazz was pretty much restricted to the Brazilian upper classes back in the '50s.

[christianm77]

Besides Gil, Bill and Miles, Jobim no doubt came into the mix after his arrival in the US (1962). By his own admission, Jobim was much more affected early on by Debussy than by jazz and credited all the altered chords and extensions in his own music to Debussy's example rather than to bebop. In fact, he mentions in an interview with Almir Chediak that access to jazz was pretty much restricted to the upper classes back in the '50s.

Good point.

An influence that often gets overlooked with Jobim is Choros - his first tune No More Blues is in a Choro form, not AABA. Lots of bassline oriented functional harmony in Choros - not so much the stereotype ii-V's of bop.

Anyway, I'm not saying I have a huge knowledge of Jobim's repertoire, but a lot of the extensions in his chords come from diatonic melody. In the case of alterations its usually diatonic melody/chromatic harmony, and occasional b9 etc (such as in Desifinado.)

But - we seem to have found some 'beyond reasonable doubt' examples of the Altered scale in the 50's - so I think you are onto something with the Gill Evans connection. Now if only I can track down some examples from classical composition...

[ragman1]

http://dmitri.mycpanel.princeton.edu/files/publications/debussy.pdf

Try pages 258/ 261. If that doesn't do it I'd drop Debussy from the discussion. In any case, none of this answers your original question.

[PMB]

Good point.

An influence that often gets overlooked with Jobim is Choros - his first tune No More Blues is in a Choro form, not AABA. Lots of bassline oriented functional harmony in Choros - not so much the stereotype ii-V's of bop.

Anyway, I'm not saying I have a huge knowledge of Jobim's repertoire, but a lot of the extensions in his chords come from diatonic melody. In the case of alterations its usually diatonic melody/chromatic harmony, and occasional b9 etc (such as in Desifinado.)

But - we seem to have found some 'beyond reasonable doubt' examples of the Altered scale in the 50's - so I think you are onto something with the Gill Evans connection. Now if only I can track down some examples from classical composition...

Maybe we should be checking out Beethoven as well. After all, he invented jazz back in 1823:

[DonEsteban]

The underlying scale of "Altered" is the "Acoustic Scale" (a tritone away).

It's known and used since a long time. You'll find more information here:

Acoustic scale - Wikipedia

[bako]

Yes Gb happens in tri-tone sub of G7 (Db7) but so does G.

1 = b5/#11
b9 = 5
9 = #5/b13
#9 = 13/6
3 = b7
4/11 = 7

b5/#11 = 1
5 = b9
#5/b13 = 9
13/6 = #9
b7 = 3
7 = 4/11

Apart from an early appearance in the music, you would have to find evidence of how the player conceived of
what they played. Whether they called it the altered scale or some earlier facsimile, whether it was associated
with the melodic minor or not.

All these intervals were in common circulation in relation to dominant chords both from tri-tone subs as well as
the collective material of what was analyzed as scale content. Some of the material derives from the African American
melodic aesthetic and perhaps some other sounds emerged from exposures to other music and reinterpreted in a jazz context.

Blues Scale - 1 b3 4 b5 5 b7
Major Blues Scale - 1 2 b3 3 5 6
Mixolydian - 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
H.Minor V - 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 b7
Whole Tone - 1 2 3 #4 #5 b7
Dimininished - 1 b2 b3 3 #4 5 6 b7
Spanish Phyrgian - 1 b2 b3 (3) 4 5 b6 b7


I guess the best (convince even Christian) answers would come from our still living elders that were embedded
in the scene. Along with that would be the recorded or written words of jazz musicians who have moved on.

This is an interesting and challenging academic question. We become accustomed to believing that every
seemingly simple inquiry can be answered with a quick google search. Unfortunately, the mere mention of
"altered scale" is flooded with content of how to usage and more contemporary thinking on the subject.
Therefore, I give up but await the conclusive proof from others.I will let you know if I stumble on any insights
in my day to day musical pursuance.

[christianm77]

Good post bako, I totally agree. It's two questions:

1) retroactive analysis - for example were they using the sound 'by ear'? (Answer - KINDA, and definitely by 1956)
2) altered scale as concept - more of a historical question. (Answer - don't know. But the Ravel link is tantalising. Also a bit more about Pomeroy's conception of the altered scale would be great to know.)

Re Db7 - I am basing it on how Barry Harris teaches. Db dominant scale is basically the same as Db mixolydian. BH also draws attention to the chords of that scale including B, and points out the presence of the Gb/F# in the scale as a feature.

Further the BH important minor concept would bring us close to the altered scale concept if improvisers started using the melodic minor scale on the tritone sub. No reason why not - but did players do it?

Of course I don't know constant Barry's teaching concepts have remained since those early Detroit days!

[christianm77]

There should be a word when you google to find out more on a subject and one of the top search results is the thread you started on the forum. RATS.

[christianm77]

BTW has anyone got the Mark Levine Theory book to hand? What examples does he give?

[Jonah]

get what you're saying Graham but you could say the same about the major scale. I can't imagine ever playing it in an unadulterated form during a solo but tons of basic jazz phrases are comprised solely of notes from that scale.

I agree... but major scale has much broader cultural musical context.. it's not just a scale.. it's a key, it's functional thing... etc... we can hear major scale in many different actual musical realisations.

I mean 'using major scale conceptually' means vast opportunities - often so different in resultative sound, style etc....

and 'using altered scale conceptually' - I believe the music must be really scale-ish for that... the whole music I mean.

or it will be heard as occasional alterations of some other scale/harmony, altered dominant tones or whatever.... application to something...

This for me always opens a question: what is a scale essentially? In early music scales and modes have more or less clear construction and logics... it is basically intervalic. But post-functional period scale theories are a bot messy about it. Mixing function and scales logics...

For example...I think the first question should be: how can we use it? and second: how amd what does it affect?

When the altered scale is used - is it used as a 'true' scale... i mean if the chracterestic intervalic qualities of the scale are involved in musical context? Or is it harmonic effect what we use it for? Applying these notes to the basic harmony?

I think this is big difference...

Altered scale - at least originally - is secondary scale (even its name tells it is altered in relation to something unaltered - of course the name does not always mean the essential thing but still this shows where it comes from)...

What I comeing to... so far I did not find examples when I could say that 'this is really the altered scale used'... mostly I understand that this could be the tool... but in musical context it always sounded to me like alteration of basic harmony

[christianm77]

@jonah - Miles Davis and John Coltrane were heavy scale players.... as in lots of scale steps. Horn players more so than guitar players perhaps, for obvious reasons.

The use of a seven note scale for harmonies.... I think that's more modern... the verticalisation of jazz harmony. That's a big overall topic that encapsulates the altered scale thing.

Which is - when did musicians start to use scales harmonically as well as in melodies over pre existing changes?

I imagine Miles was again important here, but it's kind of the retrofitting of the modal concept to functional changes that is really key.

[Jonah]

BTW has anyone got the Mark Levine Theory book to hand? What examples does he give?

I am not sure.. but as it seems to me he did not speak about altered scale... he put it as altered tones in teh harmony. THough I may be wrong...

Also I could be mistaken because I can't remember if it is Jazz Thoery Book or Jazz Piano Book...

[christianm77]

I downloaded Levine theory book.Time for a reread. The era described in my last post is his area of concern

[Jonah]

@jonah - Miles Davis and John Coltrane were heavy scale players.... the horn players more so than guitar players perhaps, for obvious reasons.

I bet they were!

But we hear what we hear - don't we?

[christianm77]

I bet they were!

But we hear what we hear - don't we?

Well it's one of the things that jumps out even from casual listening.

[destinytot]

BTW has anyone got the Mark Levine Theory book to hand? What examples does he give?

"B altered, 7th mode of C melodic minor" (Figures 3-104 & 3-105, pp70-71)

[Durban]

[QUOTE=christianm77;758851]


Dear Nerd 1


altered scale was used by Debussy, Ravel that's why the alternate Ravel name


Nerd 2

Ps Elvis would use it if he was here.

[setemupjoe]

From my limited knowledge on the definitive history of the altered scale as it is associated with jazz, I always believed that in the pre-modal era players thought more in terms of arpeggios than scales. Listening to Dizzy talk about harmony he seemed more interested in polychordal concepts and encouraged musicians to spend time at the piano where two hands can make sense of Abmi6 over G7.
Trying to find musical examples to prove the use of an altered scale would therefore be difficult if players were picking notes based on an arpeggio with passing tones.
Modal music gave us a more CST way of thinking that wasn't as common in bop and pre- bop music.
I do, however, share your fascination with this scale's beginnings. I used to see it called the b5 Lydian Dominant Scale which speaks to how many peopled viewed it as a b5 sub scale.

[ragman1]

Christian -

Sorry, but I keep asking this. Why aren't you seeking out a specialist musicologist or historian on all this? Why are you trying to do it here or just googling stuff?

And, actually, why are you doing it at all? You appear to be frying your brain in public! Are you being forced to do it? Is it the Chinese? Has someone got you over a barrel?

[christianm77]

Dear Nerd 1


altered scale was used by Debussy, Ravel that's why the alternate Ravel name


Nerd 2

Ps Elvis would use it if he was here.

Oh yeah? THEN PROVE IT BUSTER!!!!!

Also I think Elvis wasn't really into altered harmony.

Anyway - Tristano that's another thread. Warne Marsh had a similar scale. Where did he get that from?

Any Tristano-ites out there who care to enlighten me?