The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #126

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    I still believe it's ii-v-I in the dom key... am7 D7b9 (9) - Gmaj7... seems logical and Wes-like explanation...
    But I like the tritone sunb idea too... seems to be convincing considering other Wes records.


    But.. what is Vii7 to I cadence mentioned ?

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  3. #127

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    Also reminds me a bit of the last four bars of Stablemates.

  4. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    no, it has nothing to do with the key of G. it's a variation of a classical bebop approach landing on the nat9 of the tonic via 3 5 b3 7 9, so usually it's played E G D# B D. the F# reveals wes' thinking here. but the important note is the D# anyway. the blue note in the key which can be emphasized in several ways (like via IVm or V7#5). wes chooses to treat it as the maj 3rd of Bmaj7. he does that all the time.

    VII7-I is one of several backdoor cadences that can replace our V-I. consider F#m7b5 B7 to Cmaj or vice versa (think whispering or grooving high). it's actually related to Idim-I or bIIIdim-III so funny enough it can either cadence or replace the I chord.
    By Vii7 - I which chords do you mean in C major?

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  5. #129

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    'Contiguous II Vs'?

  6. #130

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    I have a truly marvelous answer to OP, which this forum is too narrow to contain.

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  7. #131

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    I have a truly marvelous answer to OP, which this forum is too narrow to contain.

    VladanMovies BlogSpot
    Love ya, Vladan!

  8. #132

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    @5:30

  9. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    no, it has nothing to do with the key of G. it's a variation of a classical bebop approach landing on the nat9 of the tonic via 3 5 b3 7 9, so usually it's played E G D# B D. the F# reveals wes' thinking here. but the important note is the D# anyway. the blue note in the key which can be emphasized in several ways (like via IVm or V7#5). wes chooses to treat it as the maj 3rd of Bmaj7. he does that all the time.

    VII7-I is one of several backdoor cadences that can replace our V-I. consider F#m7b5 B7 to Cmaj or vice versa (think whispering or grooving high). it's actually related to Idim-I or bIIIdim-III so funny enough it can either cadence or replace the I chord.
    Yes I like this cadence a lot, I often play Dm7 G7 B7 Cmaj7, and I agree the VII7 makes a good sub bIIIo7. And yes, Wes IMO is certainly thinking in C

    I did a video about that stuff a week or so back:



    OTOH... Bmaj7 Cmaj7 is also a good cadence, and follows from the bVII maj7 sub that Wes was inordinately fond of. Bmaj7 is the b7 of of the tritone dominant (Db7). I learned this sub from Barry Harris...

    Both have a similar type of movement about them of course.

    Anyway this is thinking harmonically - I like your melodic sensibility.
    Last edited by christianm77; 07-21-2017 at 07:06 AM.

  10. #134

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    Who could know how the lick was arrived at? (Theory has it that schema are formed and used by individuals without their conscious awareness.)

    But as to how to think about the lick, I'd think outside the box labelled 'functional harmony'.

    Not unlike a dance step, fashion accessory or food garnish - it's all in the execution.
    Last edited by destinytot; 07-21-2017 at 08:26 AM.

  11. #135

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    I tend to think in terms of passing chords if it's a half-step away.
    Not sure what Wes was thinking but seems like Dm...G7-B7.... Cmaj7.

    He may be implying a B7 to Cmaj7.

    I know it's wrong to use blues as a frame of reference but there's so much movement with chords a half step away from a target chord in blues. Dim chords can commonly be used as subs but with a ii-V-I (Dm-G7-Cmaj7) the first thing that comes to mind is Abm6 which is a half step away from G7. The chord closely related to Abm6- the Db7, is a half step away from both Cmaj7 and Dm.

    It's just easier for me to visualize in half steps.

  12. #136

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    i guess i sometimes do it, but like this : /Dm7 G7/ B7 Cmaj/, but this is basically Idim-I which to me are both tonic. like i said, to me bIIIdim can function as I or V, here it's job is just to suspend the chord-tones (like in UMMG, or the first bar of misty Ebo Eb), so to me it's not even a chord there, just decoration.

    what i regularly do is Dm7 B7 Em7 A7, like stitt does. that's also the bIIIdim that BH is referring to. the F# sounds so nicely outside, when the rhythm section sticks to G7. Dm7 arp down from C to D, back up, and then the same thing with F# and Eb instead of F and D.
    That makes sense....

  13. #137

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg
    like i said, to me bIIIdim can function as I or V, here it's job is just to suspend the chord-tones (like in UMMG, or the first bar of misty Ebo Eb), so to me it's not even a chord there, just decoration.
    Hadn't listened to that. What a tune...

  14. #138

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    Quote Originally Posted by coolvinny
    Another consideration is that the sequence represented by the notes E-F#-D# as played in that solo is a little bit of jazz language which often gets used in various forms. You most often see it on a Dom7 chord as b9-#9-root (of Dom 7 chord), but it has its own sound that I'm sure Wes was familiar with. I might have just used that language to create tension on the D# before resolving it to D which continues the motif of 9ths.

    Would be a fun to listen to all his solos on that album for whether he uses the idea of "up a whole step, down a minor third" on other tunes, and if so what notes / chord tones those represent.
    Thats how I think of it - its voice-led 9 on Dm , b13 on G7, 9 on Cmaj. There' no mention of tempo or accent (which is pretty relevant - always but somehow gets sidelined but I imagine its slowish ) but the F# seems to be a a passing tone off the beat- or if you like a continuation of an ascending min 3rd motif E-G,D#-F#,D where the upper note is basically ornamental. Someone mentioned Bert Ligon, he talks about the ornamentation of the voice led line somwhere in that book.
    Im sure someone has already sussed this out - but I have to say trying to attribute a chord to every note in the line seems a bit OTT....Not that Wes wasnt harmonically specific - he could also be craftily chromatic

    I also played this and realised that for me , the position of my LH might influence how I'd approach this. If I was playing off the pos III I might play E-G , D#-G , D with the G on the 1st string - which would be more in the pocket harmonically. But I can imagine Wes starting off in pos V with all notes on the second string (probably using 1st and 3rd fingers) (pos V)E-G , (pos IV) D#-F#, (pos III) D.
    Last edited by gator811; 08-05-2017 at 07:05 PM. Reason: no good reason...