How would you think about this Wes Montgomery lick?

[Jonah]

Tal Farlow had very big hand and he did not play stretches (though he had advantage with 'thumb over neck' playing).

I am trying to say that it is not that much about size of hands as for the basic stretching...

When you first pick up the guitar and try to fret strings you also feel pain, but you come over it... some pain at the training process is ok - one just should be careful and not overdo this stuff..

I never played 'thumb over the neck' but a few years ago - there were voicings and notes that I could and wanted to play this way only.. so I tried it.. a few guys told me that it is killing my hand... but In week I played it already.. now I do it quite easily (even with 5th string sometimes)...
Same thing with stretches - I am quite compact player basically - but when I wanted some stretched voicings.. I began practicing it and in a few weeks I did it... no problems so far... no pains etc.

I am sure that it is much in personal physiology and basic technique (better adopted as a child) - if your hand basically feels relaxed and not stuck while playing you will most probably easily incorcporate any new technique

[ragman1]

[ragman1]

if your hand basically feels relaxed and not stuck while playing you will most probably easily incorcporate any new technique

Jonah, you wanna stretch your wrist to hell, you go ahead :-)

[Jonah]

Jonah, you wanna stretch your wrist to hell, you go ahead :-)

I do not really understand the way you get it and put it.

I will do what I want to do. Do not doubt it.

No problem with exchanging jokes... when they work... but you cxonsequently come back with this 'big hand' thing... though it's no actually about it...

If this is a way to put things aside.. up to you. I do not force you into discussion.

Jonah, you wanna stretch your wrist to hell, you go ahead :-)

Why does it read like: you wanna stretch your wrist to head, go to hell... ?

Is it just me or?

[ragman1]

Is it just me or?

It's just you. Obviously the big hand is a joke, right? Because you might need more fingers to get that chord, you see? It's a joke.

I don't want to do these big stretches. I'm not a beginner, I know you can stretch your hand till you get flexibility but I don't particularly want to... only you seem to want to convince me.

You don't need to. Even Jordan would rather break up the chord. I agree with him, or he agrees with me, whatever. I think you can play perfectly good music without all the gymnastics.

If you don't think so, that's fine, I don't mind :-)

[ragman1]

Give them a try, I'd be curious what you guys think of them

I like them. I've thrown this together for greater elucidation - maybe

[jordanklemons]

You don't need to. Even Jordan would rather break up the chord. I agree with him, or he agrees with me, whatever. I think you can play perfectly good music without all the gymnastics.

Yeah definitely. I used to be all about the stretch. For sort of unrelated reasons, I just went to go see a hand surgeon last week. I'm laying off the stretch-caine for a while... as much as possible. When I find a voicing like that, like I mentioned earlier, I usually put an asterisk next to it which means either to only use it further up the fretboard or to be creative with how I use it lower.

I'm also an arranger, so sometimes I'm writing these voicings out for a horn section or strings or something, and I like to know that a G major triad over an E note, with a bass player playing a C root note underneath, will yield a sparkling CMaj9 sound. So I like to visually see that stuff on the fretboard, even if I'm not using realistically when playing. But again, this one's usably for me when broken up or when placed higher up the fretboard.

Also... that midi kept making want to see Bebop Mario jump out to save the Jazz Princess from the evil Bowzer.

[ragman1]

Jordan -

Hi. I hope your other physical stuff is better, by the way. Not very good, all that, as I recall.

The midi's fairly unforgiving but I wanted (apart from trying to play them down pat) to make sure the rhythms were right. I did the harmonic stuff with a piano sound at first, which is softer, but went back to guitar.

Anyway, a bit of fun and it always helps to hear these things, I feel. It might inspire somebody :-)

Incidentally, we'll never be shy playing the nat7 again after this!

[jordanklemons]

Jordan -

Hi. I hope your other physical stuff is better, by the way. Not very good, all that, as I recall.

The midi's fairly unforgiving but I wanted (apart from trying to play them down pat) to make sure the rhythms were right. I did the harmonic stuff with a piano sound at first, which is softer, but went back to guitar.

Anyway, a bit of fun and it always helps to hear these things, I feel. It might inspire somebody :-)

Incidentally, we'll never be shy playing the nat7 again after this!

Thanks Rag. The more serious stuff is, well, a little less serious now than it was. Most of the major hurdles are slowing inching their way behind me for now.

As for the video, joking aside (and complete lack of swing aside hahaha), I do think it's actually really helpful as it sort of helps conceptualize the melodic progression idea that I talk about a lot. I think my students who study with me and get to hear these ideas and play with them get what I'm talking about, but often I worry that trying to explain it using typed word does a disservice to all of us, the MP included. I imagine it comes off like a very theoretical, intellectually built philosophy. But for me, it's really just about making music in the most concise and clear way possible. Different melodic progressions convey different contours to the music. Listening back to each of these 8 ideas, you can hear a similarity to them in the same way you might if you heard
dorian -> half-whole diminished -> lydian

That has a contour as well. I would never really think about a B triad over G7 prior to Wes' riff... but I dig the contour it creates. So regardless of scales or theories or understanding why, now I know and can implement that melodic progression if I want to create that particular type of contour in the melody. It just offers another pathway through the rainforest. Hearing them all back to back is actually really helpful in that it gives the ear a chance to hear it from different perspectives. Sort of like tasting 8 different dishes that all contain the same spice. It gives the palette a chance to experience the flavor and decide what we think of it.

Thanks for throwing it together.

[ragman1]

I've got it. Certainly, it's the music that counts first and foremost. Otherwise it's a bit like trying to guess what the food tastes like from the recipe - although the recipe's necessary.

(I did put swing on it but it didn't sound good, maybe the shortness of the clips, maybe the midi, so I undid it again).

stretch-caine heh heh

[Hep To The Jive]

I took lessons from him privately not so long ago. He is a great guy - we had about 4 hours lesson for the price of 1 hour)... he does not seem to have any systematic approach for teaching... it's all about playing songs and hearing...
He has fantastic experience (at least back now after years in NY - not so many guys down here who played with Jim Hall, Tal Farlow, Attila Zoller, Joe Pass and other greats).

And yes he does a lot of unsual stretched voicings but first - he has long skinny fingers and second - he holds a guitar as you noticed a bit in a classical way... he told me that there was some guitarist on tour in Russia back in 80s who held guitar that way and played piano voicings on guitar and that was his first influence on that. But he does not push you into that he just insists that you do not play shell voicings mechanically and pushes you into hearing voice-leading and arranging chords musically.
He is probably the only guitar player who has his own recognizable voice on the instrument here (irrespectively if I like the ideas he plays or not I can immediately hear it's him).

That's my experience with him as a teacher too.

I agree, he certainly has his own voice as a guitarist, which is rare in Russia, where everyone pretty much models themselves after an American icon of choice.

Him, and there was another cat Starostenko, who was the beast! He was my second and longer teacher, told me in the beginning, while drunk, to forget about it, you can't play jazz and never will! Haha, what do you do with the teacher like that? But man, when he was on, you forgive him everything- he could play like a mofo! By the end of college he respected me a bit more I think, maybe just for my resilience.

As for stretchy chords, sure you can practice them and eventually be able to perform, but it's really not necessarily IMO. You got to pick battles very carefully, and then decide what do you want to spend your practice time on. I rather practice other things, knowing that incorporating those chords would force me to change how I hold and play the instrument, and it's not worth it to me. Just my personal artistic choice.

Within 4 frets of stretch you can play tons of great sounding chords btw, so I'm settling for that. Call me lazy

[christianm77]

Look I don't want to stereotype Russian hand spans, but it's time for this internet classic:

[Jonah]

Him, and there was another cat Starostenko, who was the beast! He was my second and longer teacher, told me in the beginning, while drunk, to forget about it, you can't play jazz and never will! Haha, what do you do with the teacher like that? But man, when he was on, you forgive him everything- he could play like a mofo!

yes... he is a legend here. Unfortunately almost no records left... I also heard he was ... well.. a difficullt person...

[Hep To The Jive]

yes... he is a legend here. Unfortunately almost no records left... I also heard he was ... well.. a difficullt person...

Ha, that's a mild way to put it. He set himself up to be a jazz casualty, me thinks. If you read a Jaco Pastorius biography, that's pretty much how he ended up.

[dingusmingus]

I was away for a few days, so I just wanted to pipe up one last time to thank everyone for this great discussion. Sometimes, you really got to love this board!

I'm pretty sure that none of chord/arp explanations can do that. And, that's because Wes' line doesn't work because it's sub-of-sub or whatever (although I thought the Dbsus explanation had considerable merit - more than mine, in fact). My way of explaining Wes' use of F# and D# is this. He constructed a line with a completely obvious rhythm and an equally obvious melodic contour. Then, he found a way of putting into that framework some notes that the ear will ordinarily struggle to accept.

How can you develop that on your own? Get a backing track of ii V's and play 4 bar phrases. Make bars 1 and 2 set up a rhythmic and melodic contour of some kind and the, in bar 3, find a way to incorporate all possible notes (a few at a time), with a focus on those that create tension. Continue the original motif in bar 4 using non-tensions.

I think understanding it this way is more likely to result in improved play than talking about CST.

Great point. I enjoy and value the discussion of constructs to understand the harmony, but I know what originally caught my ear and made me want to get the lick was the melodic structure, which comes down to rhythm and phrasing, as much or more than note selection. Wes is so, so melodic, I think because he's not afraid to break up his long lines with relatively simple patterns that sound great!

Just a quick follow up to my last post. So for me, the theoretical analysis is helpful in terms of showing me the blueprints hiding behind the music... why it works and sounds good... and then offers me insight into how I can internalize that same movement into my own lines and find a sense of improvisational freedom within this new way of structuring the melody.

So I sat and messed with thinking of this ii V I in C major with the melodic progression I listed above:
|| (A-)/2 | (B)/4 | (G)/6 | % ||

^^^
That's A minor with the 2nd added, B major with the 4th added, and G major with the 6th added.

It only took a few minutes to really start to feel out this movement... beautiful way of navigating a simple ii V I. I went ahead and wrote out just a few of the phrases I came upon doing this. I could be adding chromatic passing notes between any of these notes, or added other tension notes to create a little more movement. But I stuck to sharing ONLY phrases that stick strictly to the 4 note melodic structures. And honestly, I think they get the point across just fine. I think if I played any of these at a gig, nobody would kick me off the bandstand for only working with 4 notes per chord... I don't think it's very obvious.

They're all very different from Wes' original riff, but still developing around the same melodic contour. Give them a try, I'd be curious what you guys think of them.

Awesome, thanks so much for taking the time Jordan. Very cool stuff! (Btw, I'm Matthew D. We had a lesson together at the end of 2015.)

[Jonah]

Only now I got a chance to play the Wes lick...

My basic idea is still the same it's ii-v-i in G major... and E-F#-D# is quite common for D7b9.. this could be conceptual thing behind it.

Why it sounds well on G7 in this context... well.. please don't shoot me but I would call this F# - something like 'augmented minor 7th'... it sounds weird but it seems to me this is how it works here... first he thinks of E-F-.. but then he is somthing like getting it streched out a bit..
I think that if we played violine this major 7th here could have been lower than maj7th in root maj7 chord.

Hope you see what I mean: this F# is sort of intonative variation of F to increase the 'outside' feel a bit... it comes from F natural and realated to it...

[rpjazzguitar]

A couple of thoughts on the Bmaj triad.

When he plays F# D# B, that is, of course, a Bmaj triad.

And, yet, I hear the B, not as part of Bmaj over G7, but, rather, as a shift to Cmaj7 a beat early.

As far as Bmaj over G7, I've heard something similar faiirly often, but, typically, it's a B augmented triad B D# G. That outlines a G7b13, which is a common enough way to lead to Cmaj9.

The note that really sticks out is playing F# against G7. If I had to pick one of the explanations offered, I might go with the sus4 of the tritone, although that probably wouldn't help me actually get it into my playing. I also think that the fact that he played a Bmaj triad probably makes the ear accept the line a little more easily -- recalling that good outside lines would be good inside lines in a different harmony. Mostly, I think the overall structure of the line was so strong, he could have played just about any 2 notes instead of the F# and D# (with the first one being around a 3rd higher than the second one) and it would sound good.

[Runepune]

If one wants to get that same "colour" on the turnaround, try exchanging the first V-I with the steps further back in the circle of fifths, VII7-III (B7-Em7), so that you get one long sequence down the circle. You can even sneak a quick F#m7 in front of the B7.

So Dm7-B7-Em7-A7-Dm7-G7-C instead of Dm7-G7-C-A7-Dm7-G7-C.

Works like a charm when the piano is just stabbing

[jordanklemons]

Awesome, thanks so much for taking the time Jordan. Very cool stuff! (Btw, I'm Matthew D. We had a lesson together at the end of 2015.)

Yeah, of course I remember my man. I just usually avoid using people's real names on here unless they have it posted... in case they're going for anonymity. How's the ear training going by the way? Can you spot each of the 12 notes immediately yet?

[don_oz]

He's just super imposing a VII to I cadence, B7 to C.

[voxss]

is dexter the only musician live who looks like hes taken something...impeccable playing as always

[Jonah]

a VII to I cadence

what is it?

[destinytot]

I had a look, too:

[destinytot]

In my opinion, the lick came - indirectly, and in a round-about way - from another tune. So that's how I'd think about this Wes lick:

[JakeAcci]

He's just super imposing a VII to I cadence, B7 to C.

It's tempting to think that, and sometimes it can "feel" right to conclude that the simplest explanation must be the correct one, but this has been a good thread with a lot of folks coming to a similar conclusion based on a lot of familiarity with the player. I definitely agree with the tritone/sus4 "two-ing the five" perspective. It's much more likely that Wes was thinking or operating in that manner rather than a VII7 to I cadence.