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Yeah, this P4 avoid note on Dom 7 factoid is a pain in the arse. Who invented it?
Oh my god, major 7th on Dom 7th, I just failed my jazz theory class.
This are concepts that don't survive contact with the actual music. Wes, Parker, Charlie Christian, Lester Young didn't give a flying **** about this stuff.
F# on G7 is further indication that dissonant chords such as dim7 and 7 were not in general, managed vertically in terms of pitch choice, but considered functionally.
It's how we get from:
Dm7 Dbo7 Cm7 F7 Bb
Bb Bo7 Cm7 C#o7 Dm
Bb G7 Cm7 F7 Bb
Bb Bb7 F F#o7 Bb
Bb Bb7 F Fm6 Bb
All interchangeable progressions as it happens (melody permitting), and all basically
I --movement--> IV (or II) ---movement--> I
Voice leading. Horizontal relationships between chords.
What I will say is that managing pitch selection on 7th chords etc using vertical relationships (for example, using the altered scale rather than tritone dominant, and #11 instead of 11 on dominants) will make you sound more like a post-Berklee CST style player, which may be what you want.
Sometimes I want this sound. Most often when chords stick around for a while and it might be fun to dick around with this stuff.
If you are interested in playing functional changes based jazz in the classic mould, don't bother reading Levine. Ever. Levine's advice is actual counterproductive for this.Last edited by christianm77; 02-16-2017 at 09:00 PM.
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02-16-2017 08:57 PM
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EDIT: Without bass, I was sure. With headphones, hearing the bass, I'm absolutely sure I was wrong
Originally Posted by ragman1
Last edited by Runepune; 02-16-2017 at 10:23 PM.
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You're right! Originally Posted by Runepune
Huh, we're talking about at 4:26 in that video above? I just used my slowdown software, and for all the world, the bass line sounds like D- to G to C to me. Originally Posted by Runepune
and the chords are Am-D7-G
And I think the standard changes for Body and Soul would be ii-V-I in C, right?
That's all me, brother! Sorry if I've led you astray! Originally Posted by Runepune
Last edited by dingusmingus; 02-16-2017 at 10:30 PM.
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B over D7 is still a thing tho
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Right you are! I listened on a laptop, and only hearing guitar/piano I could have sworn it was Am-D7-G. The bass says otherwise, so you're right about the chords @dingusmingus! So maybe improvising jazz on a progression a fifth up is a good idea to try Originally Posted by ragman1
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The OP says Dm7, G7, Cmaj7, no?
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will listen tomorrow if time
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Curious about the nat11/#11 thing. Is it an either/or? I would have assumed that both were used in different targeting contexts. Leading tone to the 5th or upper neighbor to the 3rd. Maybe you're talking about scalar lines or accented extensions. Anyway, thanks. Originally Posted by christianm77
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Yeah, and it's correct. I just skipped around that audio looking for the phrase, and listening on a little speaker without bass I could have sworn I heard Am-D7-G. Go directly to 4:26 and try it on your phone Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I don't know that there is and don't know how much it matters. Originally Posted by christianm77
BTW, you're often talking about basic dominant applications (3 basic types, I think?), and one of them is the bVII.... Anyway.... :-) Is that back door or t'other? Thanks, Christian.
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I just hear it implying a V7/V7. I'm inclined to think of it as Ab7alt to G7 but D7 works too.
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No that's not it. I'm talking about the fact that the 11th is used freely by leap over dominant 7th chords in jazz. It is the #11 in fact that is used as a non-harmonic passing/leading tone in general. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
(TBH the fact that we all them 11ths and not 4ths is kind of messed up. Jazz theory is a mess.)
If it were an 'avoid' note we would expect stepwise resolution to the 3rd or 5th which is what we see with the 4th on major chords.
The OP lick gives a clear example - that Fmaj7 arp over G7. If this is not in fact correctly transcribed, there are plenty of other examples in the music of Charlie Parker, Wes, etc etc. Bebop educators understand this - Family of Four and so on.
I would personally say all of this makes sense viewed from the point of view of a central key rather than relating everything to individual chords, but people seem to look at me funny when I say this.
This is what I mean by the vertical thing. I actually think this is the big stumbling block for people approaching rhythm changes tunes for instance - having to understand vertical relationships on chords which are basically just passing dissonances. Understanding a line from the point of view of a key really helped me see clearly what was going on in Parker's lines. You dealing with 12 notes in the key rather than a million different combinations of upper extensions.
b6 is a common note for Bird.
If it's on a V7 it's b9, if it's on a bVII it's b7, If it's on IVm6 it's b3, if it's on bII7 it's the 5, if it's on III7 it's 3... oh my god MY BRAIN!!!!!!!!
No wonder so many people struggle with fast changes. That's too much information. Thinking on the chord is great when you have one chord every two bars - but two changes a bar at 240+? Forget it. Even if you pull it off your music will be cluttered and somewhat cut and dried.
Instead, remember that the chords are acting within a key.
(BTW I wonder if this isn't a guitarist problem - we don't have anyway of looking at a chord and working out what notes are in the key easily, unlike pianists. Sax players like to blag their way anyway.)Last edited by christianm77; 02-17-2017 at 07:05 AM.
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There should be a standard name for it. What is Berklee press etc for if not establishing this stuff? Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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Ok, so he's playing B/D7 which creates a 13b9... so presumably the only problem is the chords are wrong in the OP's post then. Originally Posted by Runepune
There is one small thing - correct me if I'm wrong. He's playing it in the original key of Db, right? There's no Am7 - D7 - GM7 in that key. But there is a Dm7 - G7 - CM7.
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Ah, I see you've changed your post since. Okay.
So now he's playing B/G7. We can think, as I do, that his fingers just did that in the heat of the moment... or assume that, as he's a great player, he must have absolute control over everything he plays (rather unlikely).
B/D7 makes some sense because it gives the 13b9. But B/G7? I don't think so... although theoretically there's bound to be some kind of obscure relationship or other.
But what the hell, outside is jazzy so it's good :-)
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Ligon talks a good bit about harmonic generalization (vs specificity), and there is much in jazz playing which can't be analyzed without it. Originally Posted by christianm77
To my ears, Wes generalizes a great deal. It's what I had trouble with when I first started listening to him, coming from Joe pass etc previously. Sounds like he's not even playing the changes at first, (because he's not, specifically). Now, of course I prefer his playing to anyone.
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We might be interested in this (see bars 41 - 43):
https://jeffutter.com/images/pdfs/wes-montgomerys-solo-on-body-and-soul.pdf
Last edited by ragman1; 02-17-2017 at 07:42 AM.
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That's very true. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
I don't know Ligons work personally, although I know he is thought highly of. Anyway this rings true.
Anyway, my approach might be thought of as
Generalisation-->complication
I make something simple and then recomplexify it (influenced by Barry) this means that what I play might not have a vertical relationship to the original, although it might do. So, I see
Bb G7 | cm7 F7
I think
Bb | F7
I might play:
Bb Dbm7 | Cm7 Amaj7
If I am thinks my about scales they are purely in relation to the second progression. I am not making a link to the first progression, but rather to the second, the simplified template. The chips fall where they may - the pianist may play prog 1 against my line on prog 3, but it will all come good because it will presumably resolve on the next chord.
This I think is how bop line construction works - and to me Wes's line above shows what I think is this type of thinking. The harmony is layered like the rhythms.Last edited by christianm77; 02-17-2017 at 08:16 AM.
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I don't believe we can know what Wes Montgomery thoughts behind his musical actions.
Best scenario is access to the artist describing their own process.
Even then, it becomes filtered through the realities of our own lives, which are all different than Wes.
So, we posit our best guess analysis, which is not a bad second prize when it facilitates a positive musical result and further insight.
My best guess:
Multiple paths converging with clarity towards the same destination will often defy the seeming logic on paper and can musically coexist.
G7 to C has proven to work and is our starting reference.
B, Abm7, Db9sus, Gma7+ among other possibilities can also progress to C.
A short story:
Years back I was writing an arrangement for a songwriter of a comedic song. I decided to word paint two opposite lyric moments, creating slapstick effects depicting falling and a rapid climb. I started on the initial chord and ended on the destination chord. In between I moved 4 or 5 voices chromatically in contrary motion at 16th's. The path included both triadic sounds of little obvious relationship and some very crunchy chords. This being pre-digital notation programs and given my minimal piano skills I was unable to test this at tempo prior to the recording. The result proved successful when executed in real time.
This experience gave birth to my "multiple paths converging" belief.Last edited by bako; 02-17-2017 at 09:03 AM.
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Poor old Wes, his every note scrutinised and shredded. Who'd be famous?
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I don't really care what Wes actually thought about it... usually when I about player or composer 'he thought' I mean the things I can hear in music... to me it's more important even than what he says even
In this case it's quite obvious to me that he plays with extensions and the simplest way to think about it as of superimposintions (like we call it now)...
Am7 over Dm7 - we get Dm11
D7b9 over G7 - we get G79b13 (add maj7)
Gmaj7 over Cmaj7 - we get Cmaj7#11
I do not know if Wes thought like that or not... But i presume that it was very logical way for players those day to apply one ii-v-i over another ii-v-i... and that explains F# over G7 which woulld probably have beed avoided otherwise.
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Yes this kind of my approach. Eloquently expressed. Originally Posted by bako
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Many things are 'happy accidents' - I touched on this elsewhere. It is improvisation 'in the moment' after all. Originally Posted by Jonah
As to what Wes practiced - who knows?
However, while there are some things in solos that can be understood as extensions/vertical relationships there are often things that are not understandable this way. The B on G7 thing is an example, as is the common practice of playing Ebm6 on Eo7 when going to Bb, or playing a Bbo7 on Bbmaj7 and so on.
So to me thinking about extensions on dominant chords where that chord last for a short time adds an unnecessary layer of complexity that doesn't really help and doesn't really encapsulate everything you see in Heaven and Earth.
Resolutions - sure - oh here we go to the 9th on the last note. But altered extensions on dominant 7ths? Who cares. It's over in a flash. The ear will tend to hear the voice leading not the vertical harmony.
What I would say is that Barry Harris - who remember actually recorded with Wes and part of that generation - singles out the B on G7 sound in his DVD and points out the F# not as a problem but an attractive aspect of the cadence (IIRC.) He also identifies the B chord as belonging to the tritone sub.
So, perhaps others felt the same way about it and this cadence was perhaps part of the common practice?
Need more examples!
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I think people overthink this stuff.
The basic tune is d flat, overwhelmingly...many many chord tones, which is why it lent itself to arpeggio-based improv in Coleman H's version.
In the bridge it goes up to D for a couple of phrases, then back down to C to lead back into the d flat.
Take any, major scale tune...move up 1/2 step and play notes...you will now sound outside....move it down 1/2 step from the original, you will sound less outside--but still outside. (By tri-tone analysis, this looks like I, V, and IV to me...with Body and Soul, it's not really bluesy- so much, as these are major scale chords, not dominants, but the basic sense is there.)
Body and Soul was recorded many, many times during the 30's....I sincerely doubt people tied themselves in knots trying to analyze a not really complicated tune....one you get these 3 modulations, its a great blowing tune.
I can refer to the U.S. President as onald-D rump-t, by use of "Pig Latin transpositional analysis", but is this really helpful or necessary?
Conti, in one of his videos, talks about playing the major scale off of the sharp 5, and by doing so, picking up several key outside tones....which it does...if you sit down, and work it through.
So much of this music theory analysis is just like doing high school trigonometry identity substitutions.
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He may of course have just used his ears. Usually that's a good idea, as theory easily can be a dictating/limiting box!
That said, it's not uncommon to use that major triad from the VII going into a major I chord, or on it. Gmaj#5 is a great way to move into a C, lydian colour.
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