Wave (Jobim) Analysis using Barry Harris Method

[christianm77]

Honestly. This is my pet peeve. I'm sure it's not ill-intentioned, but there are just so many threads I ignore because I'm not interested.

To me, the best way to get a feel for the "why" of it, is to watch some of his videos. Barry is a great player, and his videos are enjoyable, beyond anything to be appreciated musically.

Anyway, his six diminished scale kind of strikes me as a "major and minor at once" kind of thing. His arguments for it being foundational to western music, as opposed to just "his thing" is at the very least interesting, when you start looking at melody and harmony. My favorite bit from Harris swear he is talking about this and says something to the effect of "shame on Chopin and Bach For boiling it down to this ". [Plays basic diatonic major scale whaty whaty.] :-)

Harris is a very good cure for having too many sincere and overly encouraging people in your life. When you need someone in your life to shoot straight, bust your chops, and cut through the BS, Harris is just the curmudgeon for the job. amazingly, he's always charming in doing so.

A fond memory is his correcting me on a mistake in a Bud Powell head and looking at me as if I was absolute pond life. A memory I treasure :-)

He also told me I am a good singer another time... So hey, cosmic balance....

[christianm77]

BTW Barry is not merely a great player, he is legitimately one of the greats. He plays on quite a few of my favourite bop records, including More Power (Dexter Gordon) and West Coast Blues (Harold Land, featuring Wes.) He is one of the greatest bop pianists.

[grahambop]

Was that a sort of reharm of Wave using C6 and Do inversions (which is what happens if you harmonize the C scale + G#)?

So is this idea only good for chord melody then? Or chordal backing? Or can it be applied to single-note soloing?

How does this stop the player being the prisoner of C6 and Do in various guises?

And does it sound like Wave any more???

The harmonic system is primarily for chord movement, chord melody or chord solos, not single note. It covers more sounds than just 6ths, my post no. 3 gives some idea of the useages (though not all).

It seems the OP wants to compose his own progressions using the system (he said that at least twice), I suppose it could be used to assist with that.

I agree Wave is not the best vehicle. I tried some BH stuff and it didn't seem quite appropriate, the bossa tunes have quite specific harmony. I suppose you could do a chord solo with it though.

[ragman1]

The harmonic system is primarily for chord movement, chord melody or chord solos, not single note. It covers more sounds than just 6ths, my post no. 3 gives some idea of the useages (though not all).

It seems the OP wants to compose his own progressions using the system (he said that at least twice), I suppose it could be used to assist with that.

I agree Wave is not the best vehicle. I tried some BH stuff and it didn't seem quite appropriate, the bossa tunes have quite specific harmony. I suppose you could do a chord solo with it though.

I think that's what I've been trying to say, albeit clumsily. Sorry if I got carried away. Actually, if we were to apply all this to Wave, it was answered admirably in the first few posts by you and Christian.

[destinytot]

Was that a sort of reharm of Wave using C6 and Do inversions (which is what happens if you harmonize the C scale + G#)?

Not a reharm.

So is this idea only good for chord melody then?

I wouldn't put it that way, but there's a grain of truth to that.

Or chordal backing?

Now you're talking!

Or can it be applied to single-note soloing?

Let's say it's a way of harnessing the guitar's polyphonic properties for soloing.

How does this stop the player being the prisoner of C6 and Do in various guises?

'Gravity' is the name of the game, which involves both knowledge and skills.

And does it sound like Wave any more???

"If you can't hear it, it isn't for you."

destinytot -

Sorry, forgot to say thank you for your effort there.

Thank you. I always appreciate courtesy.

I have to say at this point in time I'm preferring the lush bossa sounds of the original. Don't be offended, nothing to do with your demonstration. But I do think those sounds are hard to beat.

I get that. Here's my old live recording of Wave, made with a group of fantastic players many moons ago.

I think you've missed my point, which is that Barry Harris's harmonic approach is completely compatible with performing Wave - or other bossa nova tunes, or other styles.

I think the 'rules' in post no. 3 show the 'hows' - but I don't think the concession in the follow-up post (no. 56) goes nearly far enough to acknowledge the scope of the approach for performing, improvising and arranging:

I suppose you could do a chord solo with it though.

[ragman1]

(You silly sausage.)

Thank you, I am admonished

[ragman1]

'Gravity' is the name of the game, which involves both knowledge and skills.

Don't understand that one.

Mike McKoy? Oh, I knew him quite well. I used to turn up at his gigs and chat outside the caff in the Brighton Lanes. Nice player. He was up at the Uni then. Last I heard, many moons ago, he'd made a CD that won an award. Something like that.

You're not him, are you? Can't tell from your vid but the voice is vaguely familiar possibly. I think he/you wore big glasses in those days, could be wrong.

Nice version, btw.

[destinytot]

Hi guys, How are you?

I was wondering if you could help get the logic around this composition using the Barry Harris method.

Progression:

D7M Bbº Am7 D7(b9) G7M Gm6 F#7(13) F#7(b13) B7(9)sus4

I never saw anyone doing an analysis using his method, so here we go and correct if I am wrong please.

My goal is to discover the logic behind the method to apply to my own compositions.

First two chordsD7M Bbº) scales: D6diminished scale | D6 chord + Dbdim7 chord

Am7 , using the tritone minor's of D = Bbm6 dim scale, that way we have the notes of Adim7 and we can borrow it to form the Am7 and some other chords after.

Is that the way to think about and to analyze it? Am I correct?

Thanks.

Hi. I was wondering whether you'd mind correcting the misspelling of Jobim in the thread title.

[destinytot]

Don't understand that one.

'Gravity' was a James Moody one-liner with a message about 'freedom in jazz' (the inference being that the improviser works with - and not against - scientific laws). Rabbit hole alert: Tonal gravity.

Mike McKoy? Oh, I knew him quite well. I used to turn up at his gigs and chat outside the caff in the Brighton Lanes. Nice player. He was up at the Uni then. Last I heard, many moons ago, he'd made a CD that won an award. Something like that.

You're not him, are you? Can't tell from your vid but the voice is vaguely familiar possibly. I think he/you wore big glasses in those days, could be wrong.

Nice version, btw.

Yes - I am he. Let's pm.

[grahambop]

I think that's what I've been trying to say, albeit clumsily. Sorry if I got carried away. Actually, if we were to apply all this to Wave, it was answered admirably in the first few posts by you and Christian.

You might find this of interest, I applied some of the BH harmonic ideas to 'My Romance', hopefully gives some idea of what you can do with it:
Barry Harris chord movements - My Romance

[christianm77]

I've heard tonal gravity explained - basically - as harmony descends by step.

That's why things like sequences, descending basslines and fourthwise harmony have a sense of natural inevitability about them, while things going in fifths, ascending basslines and so on have a feeling of 'climbing.'

It really does work for diatonic harmony....

[ragman1]

You might find this of interest, I applied some of the BH harmonic ideas to 'My Romance', hopefully gives some idea of what you can do with it:
Barry Harris chord movements - My Romance

Yes, I see. Chord melody using inversions and connecting dims, derived from piano playing. Something like that?

I watched/listened to one of the BH vids and he played a bit, sounded very nice. But, of course, he was using both hands over a few octaves. Apparently it can transfer to the guitar which has naturally less range.

I don't really do chord melody so perhaps I don't relate to this well.

[ragman1]

'Gravity' was a James Moody one-liner

I know James Moody, bop saxophonist, but I don't know what that means, sorry. To me, one-liners are jokes :-)

[christianm77]

Noodling about with some BH harmony ideas

Dropbox - Wave and Barry Harris.m4a

[grahambop]

Yes, I see. Chord melody using inversions and connecting dims, derived from piano playing. Something like that?

I watched/listened to one of the BH vids and he played a bit, sounded very nice. But, of course, he was using both hands over a few octaves. Apparently it can transfer to the guitar which has naturally less range.

I don't really do chord melody so perhaps I don't relate to this well.

The application is more than just chord melody though, it is also to make your comping more interesting, also it helps with playing chord solos along the lines of what Wes Montgomery used to do.

[destinytot]

I know James Moody, bop saxophonist, but I don't know what that means, sorry. To me, one-liners are jokes :-)

The humour was in the telling. Something along the lines of. "Ain't no such thing as 'free' in jazz? Know why? Gravity! C'mon, gimme a hug!"

[ragman1]

The humour was in the telling. Something along the lines of. "Ain't no such thing as 'free' in jazz? Know why? Gravity! C'mon, gimme a hug!"

Gotcha. Subtle... and actually sensible.

[ragman1]

The application is more than just chord melody though, it is also to make your comping more interesting, also it helps with playing chord solos along the lines of what Wes Montgomery used to do.

Yes, thanks, I meant comping as well. Chords, anyway!

Do you think it translates to the guitar all right? I'm not saying it doesn't, just wondering.

[mr. beaumont]

Yes, thanks, I meant comping as well. Chords, anyway!

Do you think it translates to the guitar all right? I'm not saying it doesn't, just wondering.

I've just started looking at it. For soloing polyphonically, I'd say it's going to give me plenty of ideas. But I'll still keep transcribing Wes and Bickert too, that's waaaaay more immediately useful for me than a book.

[bossa]

Thanks for all your help, really great full for all the time and help on the post.

My main goals are to think the Harris way, as I am currently enrolled @ jazzschoolonline, that teaches Harris, but they don't answer emails quite often.

I would like to learn more about the chord movements of Harris' method between those original chords, 6th transformations, harmonic implications of it(Harris), transforming it and applying interesting new ideas of compositing, creating the method has to offer. I don't mind if will sound different and will loose their original bossa soul. It's for academic purposes only.

Borrowing, etc..How to think using this...how to approach a song, learn from it and apply to you own compositions, reharm, etc.

I would like to see more examples applied to chord progressions, songs.

What to do, how to think when we have chords the has two different scales, two different dimished chords, like the first three chords of Wave.

D7M Bbº Am7

It's easier when we have Dm7b5 - G7 - Cm6 but even for that progression, what we could do, movements, etc...
Thanks again.

[grahambop]

Yes, thanks, I meant comping as well. Chords, anyway!

Do you think it translates to the guitar all right? I'm not saying it doesn't, just wondering.

Yes of course it does, otherwise why would I be using it?

[destinytot]

My main goals are to think the Harris way, as I am currently enrolled @ jazzschoolonline, that teaches Harris, but they don't answer emails quite often.

If you have his book, perhaps you might want to try asking Alan Kingstone.

Borrowing, etc..How to think using this...how to approach a song, learn from it and apply to you own compositions, reharm, etc.
I would like to see more examples applied to chord progressions, songs.

After finding the first part of the book to be pretty much plain sailing, I then got stuck for ages when I couldn't grasp the idea of 'borrowing' (confused by the nomenclature) - until Alan kindly cleared it up in the official Barry Harris thread.

I would like to see more examples applied to chord progressions, songs.

Making Barry Harris moves in Marty Grosz tuning.

Also, thank you very much for correcting the spelling of 'Jobim' in the thread title.

[grahambop]

It's easier when we have Dm7b5 - G7 - Cm6 but even for that progression, what we could do, movements, etc...

Here's a little movement I've been doing on that turnaround, i.e. 2 bars: /Dm7b5 G7 / Cm /

x5656x Fm6 (Dm7b5)
x7868x Edim
x8989x Abm6 (G7#5b9)
x5646x Bdim (G7b9)
x6778x Ebmaj7 b5 (Cm 6 9)

The last chord could be viewed as an Eb6 which I have tweaked a bit, or as a Cmin6 with the 9 borrowed from the next diminished chord.

[ragman1]

Here's a little movement I've been doing on that turnaround, i.e. 2 bars: /Dm7b5 G7 / Cm /

x5656x Fm6 (Dm7b5)
x7867x Edim
x8989x Abm6 (G7#5b9)
x5646x Bdim (G7b9)
x6778x Ebmaj7 b5 (Cm 6 9)

The last chord could be viewed as an Eb6 which I have tweaked a bit, or as a Cmin6 with the 9 borrowed from the next diminished chord.

I have to admit that does sound quite nice :-) I like the EbM7b5.

[grahambop]

I have to admit that does sound quite nice :-) I like the EbM7b5.

That minor 6 9 chord was a favourite of Wes Montgomery, that's originally where I got it from.

Also of course it makes a nice F 13 9 chord to use instead of F7.