Wave (Jobim) Analysis using Barry Harris Method

[mr. beaumont]

Sounds great, destinytot!

I like to simplify Wave a lot, for soloing. For comping, it's a bossa, and has plenty of information right in it to make it interesting.

For soloing, it is kind of a blues, right?

So I think Dmaj, D7 (b9), Gmaj, Gm6, F#7b13, B9, E9, A7alt, Dm.

[destinytot]

Sounds great, destinytot!

I like to simplify Wave a lot, for soloing. For comping, it's a bossa, and has plenty of information right in it to make it interesting.

For soloing, it is kind of a blues, right?

So I think Dmaj, D7 (b9), Gmaj, Gm6, F#7b13, B9, E9, A7alt, Dm.

Thanks very much, Mr B! What I think makes that approach so brilliant for guitarists is that it allows us to make use of the polyphonic properties of the instrument.

And yes, I agree that it's a kind of blues - and so does BDLH:

I think of Wave as Jobim's take on a 12 bar blues

Not Jobim (to OP: please note spelling!), but also a kind of blues:

[bossa]

@ christian, I am speechless thank you so much for all your help!!!

And this...

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/attac...arry-style-jpg

Back to the harmonic implications, you said to use two scales, what if we use only one?

D6diminished scale: D6 = D F# A B
Dbdim7 = Db E G Bb
Related Dominants = C7 Eb7 Gb7 A7

I believe we can compose all the chords using the notes of the related dominants and the D6dim scale

What do you think of this logic?

Thanks.

[christianm77]

@ christian, I am speechless thank you so much for all your help!!!

And this...

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/attac...arry-style-jpg

Back to the harmonic implications, you said to use two scales, what if we use only one?

D6diminished scale: D6 = D F# A B
Dbdim7 = Db E G Bb
Related Dominants = C7 Eb7 Gb7 A7

I believe we can compose all the chords using the notes of the related dominants and the D6dim scale

What do you think of this logic?

Thanks.

It's just that Am7 D7

[christianm77]

I think this sounds more in the harmonic style of the tune than the first offering. The melody hits an F# on the Bbdim, and a B on the D7b9. So, thinking F# minor dominant on the Bbdim and B minor dominant on the D7b9. Otherwise one might go down the 'dreaded' harmonic major rabbit hole.

You wouldn't want that. Harmonic major scale is LAAAAMME.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I don't know BH's approach and I might have missed it here, but what is the D6 diminished scale, exactly?

[christianm77]

D major sixth diminished scale.

Yer take a D major 6

D F# A B

and you add one common or garden dim7 chord, on the leading note

C# E G Bb

And make a scale

D E F# G A Bb B C#

You can use this scale to make chord progressions. The obvious one is the four way close and drop 2 block harmony (for the latter think Wes block chords - the former is actually impossible to do on the guitar but common in Big Band arrangements and the piano styles of George Shearing among others.)

Furthermore Barry stipulates that diminished notes will be to some extent dissonant (IIRC) and should be resolved...


E.g.

E G Bb C# - Eo7
E G A C# - A7/E
D G A C# - D(sus4)maj7
D F# A C# - Dmaj7
D F# A B - D6

For more info check out Barry's teaching materials, or Alan Kingstone's book.

[mr. beaumont]

I think i know this one, BigDaddy, but im sure someone can correct me if not:

So you take a D6 (D, F#,A, B)

And a diminished chord based off the maj7 of the "D chord"

So C#, E, G, A#

And make a scale out of it:

D E F# G A A# B C#.

Edit: or I could just type slowly and shut up.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Wow that was quick! I don't want to think too scalarly, but If I think of alternating back and forth between D6 and A7b9 is that what BH is saying? Tension and release? Seems like standard jazz stuff, as in non-controversial.

[ragman1]

I'm happy to an audio though.

Goody.

It wouldn't take long to run through the Wave A part twice (with a backing, naturally, so the notes have the right colour behind them) - once using the usual standard stuff and then using the BH 6 stuff so we can see the beautiful difference.

[christianm77]

Goody.

It wouldn't take long to run through the Wave A part twice (with a backing, naturally, so the notes have the right colour behind them) - once using the usual standard stuff and then using the BH 6 stuff so we can see the beautiful difference.

OK - in Barry land harmony and linear improv are seperate studies. I tend to use the latter.

What do you mean 'do the BH 6th stuff?' lol. The system is somewhat open ended.

I could harmonise a melody in drop2's, walk a bassline with chords, play cadences based on voicings extracted from the maj6 dim scale with some interesting inner voice movement, perhaps even demo some stuff in contrary motion but I've barely tapped the basics.

Perhaps those who have some knowledge of the BH approach could post a study using the concepts?

I could demonstrate the single note improv exercise, but that's pretty boring to listen to. Much better to DO IT and appreciate its value.

If you want to listen to me soloing using the BH approach to linear improvisation, just listen to my live video of my trio. But the chords are not BH really.

[ragman1]

Was that a sort of reharm of Wave using C6 and Do inversions (which is what happens if you harmonize the C scale + G#)?

So is this idea only good for chord melody then? Or chordal backing? Or can it be applied to single-note soloing?

How does this stop the player being the prisoner of C6 and Do in various guises?

And does it sound like Wave any more???

[christianm77]

Was that a sort of reharm of Wave using C6 and Do inversions (which is what happens if you harmonize the C scale + G#)?

So is this idea only good for chord melody then? Or chordal backing? Or can it be applied to single-note soloing?

How does this stop the player being the prisoner of C6 and Do in various guises?

And does it sound like Wave any more???

That's the basic BH maj6-dim scale exercise in parallel drop2's- block chords basically. We don't get as far as Am7 D7.

It took me about 10 years to get on top of that, but I am a bit slow sometimes.

This is why I tend not to use BH drop2's for comping. It's flipping difficult. I have adapted his stuff for walking bass with chords and in some cases chord melody and chord soloing.

This guy has it down tho:

[ragman1]

destinytot -

Sorry, forgot to say thank you for your effort there.

I have to say at this point in time I'm preferring the lush bossa sounds of the original. Don't be offended, nothing to do with your demonstration. But I do think those sounds are hard to beat.

[christianm77]

destinytot -

Sorry, forgot to say thank you for your effort there.

I have to say at this point in time I'm preferring the lush bossa sounds of the original. Don't be offended, nothing to do with your demonstration. But I do think those sounds are hard to beat.

TBH I probably agree - BH is coming of Bud and bebop, while Jobim's harmony is something different.

Not completely incompatible though.

[ragman1]

What do you mean 'do the BH 6th stuff?'

I don't mean anything by it, it's what bossa, the OP requested. It's what this is about in relation to that section of Wave.

Much better to DO IT and appreciate its value.

Exactly, otherwise I don't see how we've helped him. I mean, he's said he loves the thread and is overawed by the response etc etc, but has he resolved his problem?

[ragman1]

TBH I probably agree - BH is coming of Bud and bebop, while Jobim's harmony is something different

So why didn't anyone tell bossa that right from the start? I thought that straight away, which is why I gave him some scales to use. They work, btw, I played with it for three hours before I posted!

(edit)

Listened to Slowboat. Sorry, don't like it, there's something missing. I believe Reg said that too over on the other BH thread. See if I can find it.

[christianm77]

He asked for analysis not demonstration. There's two sides to to the BH harmony thing

1) analysing progressions to building block 6-dim scales.

2) building back up using various devices developed from the 6-dim scales.

So.

1)

| D6dim | % | G6dim | % |
| G6 dim | D6dim | F#7-dim | B7-dim |
| E7-dim | A7-dim | Dm6dim | % |

2) is open ended. I could probably demonstrate some basic stuff, but it's not necessarily what the OP asked for.

[christianm77]

So why didn't anyone tell bossa that right from the start? I thought that straight away, which is why I gave him some scales to use. They work, btw, I played with it for three hours before I posted!

TBH I think you are muddying the waters here. This is a BH thread, about a specific appraoch/school. Of course your CST scale choices work. They are fine, for a certain colour - post 60's modern jazz. They are not what BH would use (strict bop), which is the point of this thread.

Right I will post something tomorrow, I'll see what I can do with this maj6 thang on Wave.

[ragman1]

a) Why is he asking for analysis of a specific part of a tune if he doesn't want to apply it? What's the point?

b) Why are you still up?

[christianm77]

So why didn't anyone tell bossa that right from the start? I thought that straight away, which is why I gave him some scales to use. They work, btw, I played with it for three hours before I posted!

(edit)

Listened to Slowboat. Sorry, don't like it, there's something missing. I believe Reg said that too over on the other BH thread. See if I can find it.

I have already read and argued with Reg on the matter about 6 months ago. No need to dig that up again. I believe we agreed to disagree?

If you don't like the sound of Barry's harmony, then presumably there is not much need for further comment.

[ragman1]

They are not what BH would use (strict bop), which is the point of this thread.

I KNOW!!!! Which is why I think the poor chap's confused!!!!

[christianm77]

a) Why is he asking for analysis of a specific part of a tune if he doesn't want to apply it? What's the point?

b) Why are you still up?

Oh FFS (with respect) stop posting about something you are neither interested in or knowledgeable about.

[christianm77]

(You silly sausage.)

[matt.guitarteacher]

Oh FFS (with respect) stop posting about something you are neither interested in or knowledgeable about.

Honestly. This is my pet peeve. I'm sure it's not ill-intentioned, but there are just so many threads I ignore because I'm not interested.

To me, the best way to get a feel for the "why" of it, is to watch some of his videos. Barry is a great player, and his videos are enjoyable, beyond anything to be appreciated musically.

Anyway, his six diminished scale kind of strikes me as a "major and minor at once" kind of thing. His arguments for it being foundational to western music, as opposed to just "his thing" is at the very least interesting, when you start looking at melody and harmony. My favorite bit from Harris is where he is talking about the scale and says something to the effect of "shame on Chopin and Bach For boiling it down to this ". [Plays basic diatonic major scale whaty whaty.] :-)

Harris is a very good cure for having too many sincere and overly encouraging people in your life. When you need someone in your life to shoot straight, bust your chops, and cut through the BS, Harris is just the curmudgeon for the job. Amazingly, he's always charming in doing so.