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Thanks. You're right of course. HMaj has a natural 5 and b6...
Originally Posted by christianm77
The second one is right as well and makes the point.
Which is easier, M#5 or Mode III of Harmonic minor?
All white keys but G# instead of G. Simple enough. I instantly know exactly what notes to play.
C D E F G# A B
Mode III of Harmonic minor. "Let's see. HMin has b3, So I lower M by 3 half steps and find that for C#5, I'm going to play A Harmonic minor but remember that the root of the COM is C. Ok, are we still playing that tune?"
Another example.
Locrian #2 is in reasonably common usage. I still have to think, B locrian, that's the notes of a C major scale, but I'm going to raise the C to a C#. Which gives me the melodic minor a b3 higher
Or, B C# D E F G A is Bb3b5#5b7. or Bm9b5#5. Find Bm9 and alter the fifth both ways. That tells me more than B locrian#2. There would be lots of notation options for specifying altered 3rds, 5ths 7ths and 9ths.
Bm95 -- with a strikeout through the 5, might, for example, specify both altered fifths.
Obviously, you could get to the same place either way. Since I find notes by name and interval, the chord name approach is more helpful.
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11-21-2017 08:55 PM
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Well I often think 'relative minor of major' and play a harmonic or melodic minor....
BTW Locrian #2 or Locrian natural 2? I'd be basing it on Locrian, but whats the textbook usage?
Anyway I think it's a good system, but I'd like to be able to base scales on the 3 main chord types (maj, dom, min) and go from there.
maj7 = 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
dom7 = 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
min7 = 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
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Locrian #2 = min7b5 then. Neat, right?
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Lydian = maj7#11
Dorian = min7(nat)13
Lydian Dom = 7#11
Mix b9 b13/Phryg Dom = 7b9b13
Locrian #2 = m7b5
etc
Obviously, the standard conventions on chord symbols apply...
We can dispense with the Greek bollocks, it's simply unnecessary extra terminology.
I await that job from Berklee now I've sorted out their silly ass theory :-)
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That would be C#1 in your nomenclature. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Right. C#1. Thanks.
I can't even get my own symbols right! You can see why I'm trying to go simpler.
Locrian #2 is min 9 with both altered fifths.
So, I like Bm9(alt5s) or a symbol that means "both altered 5ths".
Tells you the notes to play and how to voice the chords so as not to conflict with the intention of the COM.
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I was wrong too, starting from B, ... C#1/B, looks like it could get more complicated.
Could also be A7b6/B,
and looking from B, #5 is 6th degree in B natural minor.
And since the scale is now Dmel min ... Db3/B
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Yikes...no more thinking "what would Satchmo do?"
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Db^2 * (C## / B#) = 4.33333, under laboratory conditions.
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I've just been reading a book about how hieroglyphics and Linear B were deciphered, I found it easier to follow than some of the posts in this thread!
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Lol.....I was just wondering if someone can actually just throw some of those Modes of Secondary and Tertiary Scales into a Tune ...more power to you if you can. Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
However I can see how someone might have a Tune or 2 or write something that would feature some of this on a kind of pre rehearsed basis.
I use a vertical /horizontal style that sounds advanced and Rhythmic there is still horizontal - but I hear most of it - or feed my ear things that I don't hear in Practice..like playing in linear 4ths largely really cutting down on close intervals -so after I do it awhile 10 20 40 hours whatever it is ..I DO start hearing it.
And the way I Play ...by using Melodic Cadences- I can force lines to end on/ in specific Chords .
I think I would suck at using a lot of exotic scales...lol.
I use one which sounds Indian which is probably some mode of Harmonic Minor which works on a Minor OR a step down resolving to the b7 of a minor
but by transposing the 'scale' a whole step down .Not merely targeting the b7.
( which is unusual )
And I have always from Steely Dan influence used II Harmonic Minor with an added b7 so it goes from ninth to ninth over a Dominant Chord.Last edited by Robertkoa; 11-22-2017 at 07:41 AM.
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Well I think my system where the name of the chord/scale is literally the name of the related chord symbol and the construction of the scale is based on a consistent system is pretty elegant myself.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
If you base it on minor with degrees named after parallel major, as you said you would like to, it would be min#b6#b7, # and b cutting out each other, we end with min67, Originally Posted by christianm77
Or, if you take natural minor as a base with own 1234567 degrees, it would be #6#7.
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I'm almost happy I took a lot of drugs in the 70's when this all started.
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It's a matter of convention really. Originally Posted by Vladan
1) Actually, we could set major to lydian and minor to dorian, and change the notes as specified in the chord symbol. As no one plays a maj7nat4 or min7b6 voicing in the general run of things, that might even be a good idea.
That way the chord scale always comes out right (I think.)
When you think about it, mainstream jazz theory already does this in fact.
2) Or base the scale generation on the diatonic scale of the key centre and change the notes as specified in the chord symbol.
The latter would work better for more vanilla/traditional scale running, the former would give the chord scale sounds.
In the first understanding Am7 is always A B C D E F# G A
And in the second is
A B C D E F G A in C major
A B C D E F# G A in G major
A Bb C D E F G A in F major
And so on
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I understand that people are having fun with this, but ...
The kernel of rationality is that the common system is, in a way, bizarre in the nomenclature.
It makes a G7 into G mixolydian. I'd prefer G13.
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But, if you change the C to a C#, suddenly it's G lydian dominant. Or Mode IV D melodic minor. I'd prefer G13#11.
If you decide to lower the E to Eb, you get Mode V, C melodic minor, I'd prefer G7(b13)
If you also flat the 9, you get Mode V C Harmonic minor. I'd prefer G7b9b13
The nomenclature is obscure and much harder to learn than simply thinking of the 13th chord (or similar) instead of the Greek name of the scale with the exact same notes. And, changing a single note can change the Greek name and add a Mode number.
How about making fun of whoever started that?
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As I say people like the Greek names because it makes them feel as if it's important, and they aren't just a bunch of layabout hippies smoking weed all day and who should get a proper job.
Or - it's a clever con to convince the wider world that jazz is a respectable field of study, and get away with doing that under the aegis of academia. If the latter, it only increases my respect for Pomeroy, Burton et al.
Ask Hal. He's just sore because he's not invited to the Berklee bong-fest.
What are the fees at Berklee BTW? :-D
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Reg's sixth-string reference for scales - for which, "Thank you, masked man!" - triggered something of a transformation in my perception of the fretboard.
Similarly (mostly) minor pentatonics for reference - along with relaxation and trust - are helping me to play in way that is immensely satisfying.
There's some sacrifice involved - not Bambi (because such an act would be deplorable, odious and vile) but some of my former beliefs.,
And like a visit to the dentist's, it soon passes - and then it's on to pastures new (which are actually not new ... and have been right there all the time).
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$40,220?
Bullshit does it cost that much to teach a pimply kid to play Fusion Keytar. I know a guy who will do it for £12.50 an hour,
Wake up and smell the ganja, sheeple!
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"secondary or tertiary"? Originally Posted by Robertkoa
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Actually system 1 doesn’t work for m7b5 chords, so maybe Ionian/Aeolian might be better. You’d really want to define a m7 chord as separate from a tonic minor, as Jerry Coker does.... Originally Posted by christianm77
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Just slang..I was thinking of Primary Scales being Diatonic like Modes and Pentatonics and even Harmonic Minor etc. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
Stick a Roman Numeral in front like a' trick ' I discovered long long ago mentioned earlier of a II Harmonic Minor
over a Major Minor 7th Chord ( Dominant 7th whether it is actually a V or not as in the I of a Blues)
So you play a Harm Minor from the Second to the 9th or 9th to 9th and add the b7 - sounds Jazzy but fits Rock or Chicago Blues or Jazz..
That's a Secondary Scale ..the way I was thinking.
Like Playing v minors over a I 7 or i b7
THEN you add the Modes of that ( which I would NEVER bother to do unless somebody paid me like when I did Jingles ..
That would be Tertiary Territory- unless it happens in normal improv.
Likewise -Taking a Standard Mode or Scale and altering it = Secondary
Standard Mode then Altering it THEN Roman Numeral = Tertiary
By the way I find the term Lydian Dominant to be Obscure - not that I'm a scaley type Guy ( smooth skin) -
If it's Lydian with a b7 - call it Lydian b7
If it's to be Played off the 3rd of the Parent Chord , call it a III Lydian b7.OR Lydian b7 off the 3rd of a Major Chord etc.
I have heard VERY few people play exotic scales in Time/ good Rhythm in actual Tunes and make them sound good.
Exception would be Randall Dollahon long ago playing in an R&B Group called 'Kepler'.
And I'm sure there are others. Not many Guitarists.
He was the head of UM Jazz Guitar program and he used Hungarian Whole Tone and stuff like that in Earth Wind and Fire tunes etc. and it sounded no more ' outside ' than Steely Dan but he wasn't just playing the scales up and down...he was far more advanced than any of the Steely Dan Guest or core Guitarists...
The thing is with exotic scales or not the Target Tones or Melodic Cadences are always the same.
My Terminology a Melodic Cadence is often 2 Target Tones at the end of a Phrase or at a Pause in the Line to tie it to the Parent Chord and forces the listener to hear the phrase a certain way..
Your Scales only work because they have Melodic Cadences..and all excellent/ great Improvisers use Melodic Cadences ..they don't all use 'scales'.
But you can do both for sure.Last edited by Robertkoa; 11-22-2017 at 09:46 AM.
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Is that for a year, or for four years? If it's four years, it's actually on the lower end of what higher ed in the US costs. If it's for a year, it's on the upper end, but by no means the most expensive. (I believe my alma mater, Boston University, is up to $60-ishK per year. It was 30ish in the 80s when I was there.) Originally Posted by christianm77
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