Scale, mode, modulated scale

[Ron Stern]

Something must be wrong, I think I've figured out modes. Two does not equal three.

The subject of modes begins with three basic elements, not two. One, a scale. You know what a scale is. Two, a mode. The
modes are easily grasped. Same notes, same order, just start on a different note. Three . . . what?

Most discussions slide on by this and plunge off into uses of the modes. "Let's look at mode X of scale Y." Next thing you
know they're talking about notes that aren't in the scale. And here's a little secret, folks, they're not in the mode either. There
is no note in any mode that isn't in it's parent scale. The notes of the parent scale and all of its modes are the same, always.

So how does mode X produce sounds outside it's parent scale? It doesn't. It can't. It's impossible. They have the same notes. The authors are no longer talking about mode X, or scale Y. Get this straight and keep it straight: a scale and all of its modes have exactly the same notes. So where do the extra notes come from?

They come from the third thing, which I call the modulated scale. The modulated scale will have notes that aren't in the parent scale or any of it's modes. That's because it isn't the parent scale, and it isn't the mode.

The modulated scale is the result of applying the step sequence of the mode to the parent scale of the mode.
Like this:

This is the C major scale: C D E F G A B C

This is the Mixolydian mode of the C major scale: G A B C D E F G

Note, there are no sharps or flats in either the scale or any mode of C major. In fact, the notes are the same. The notes of a scale and all of its modes are the same. Write this on the back of your hand if you must.

This is the step sequence of the C major scale: w w h w w w h

The Mixolydian mode gives you a series of the same notes beginning on a certain note, in this case, G. This series has a different sequence of half steps and whole steps. This is the step sequence of the C major Mixolydian mode: w w h w w h w

Make a new scale by starting on the root note of the parent scale but applying the step sequence derived from the mode. Presto, the modulated scale.

This is the C major Mixolydian modulated scale: C D E F G A Bb C

Note, this new scale, the C major Mixolydian modulated scale, has Bb. Neither the C major scale, nor the Mixolydian mode of the C major scale has Bb. No mode of the C major scale has Bb.

The concepts are quite simple. The confusion is produced by sloppy terminology. People will talk about the blues effect, or wistful, playful, tragicomic, inwardly, downwardly effect of the Bb in the Mixolydian mode of C. There is no Bb in the Mixolydian mode of C. There is no flat of any kind in any mode of C, or any sharp either. Where did the Bb come from? In their haste to get to the ethereal realm, they neglected to tell you. It came from the third thing.

3 things:

1. scale
2. mode
3. modulated scale

C D E F G A Bb C is not the Mixolydian mode of C. It isn't any mode of anything. It's a scale. A modulated scale. A scale modified by a mode. That's what modified means. Changed by a mode.

[GuyB]

Originally Posted by Ron Stern

C D E F G A Bb C is not the Mixolydian mode of C. It isn't any mode of anything. It's a scale. A modulated scale. A scale modified by a mode. That's what modified means. Changed by a mode.

And what would you say if someone tells you that C D E F G A Bb C is a C mixolydian (the fifth mode of F ) ???

[Bill_J]

Ron,

I am not entirely sure what you are trying to say, but C, D, E, F, G, A, Bb, C is C mixolydian and is played from the 5th scale tone (C) in the F major scale.

The trick is the tonal center that you play over. If you play the C mixolydian mode over an F major chord, you are simply playing an F major scale starting on the 5th. However, if you play the C mixolydian mode over a Cdom7 chord, you are playing the mixolydian mode.

Bill

[Ron Stern]

Originally Posted by GuyB

And what would you say if someone tells you that C D E F G A Bb C is a C mixolydian (the fifth mode of F ) ???

C Mixolydian is a noun if it refers to a person from
C Mixolydia, as in " that guy is a C Mixolydian." Otherwise it's an adjective. My question would be, to what noun are you applying this adjective?

[mr. beaumont]

sounds like we're complicating the simple here.

[happyjack]

Very interesting thankyou any reason why the mixolydian scale was chosen in this conversation am keen to know

[Ron Stern]

Originally Posted by Bill_J

Ron,

I am not entirely sure what you are trying to say, but C, D, E, F, G, A, Bb, C is C mixolydian and is played from the 5th scale tone (C) in the F major scale.

The Mixolydian mode of C is: G A B C D E F G

Any mode is derived from a scale. If the notes are not in the scale, they cannot be in the mode.

[Ron Stern]

Originally Posted by happyjack

Very interesting thankyou any reason why the mixolydian scale was chosen in this conversation am keen to know

I can't remember. But I didn't pick the "Mixolydian scale" because that is an ambiguous term.

I picked C because it has no sharps or flats, ever. Therefore none of its modes has any sharps or flats, ever. The question then becomes, how is it possible that what is spoken of as the "C Mixolydian [something]" has Bb in it. The answer is, by replacing the step sequence of the C scale with the step sequence of its Mixolydian mode, you get C D E F G A Bb C, which is neither the C scale, nor its Mixolydian mode.

Run it out on paper and see.

[guitar-monkey]

Hi Ron,

I think most of us would call G A B C D E F G 'G Mixolydian', since it's a Mixolydian mode and it's 'tonic' is G. We'd know that the parent scale is C Major because the Mixolydian mode starts on the fifth degree of its parent scale.

I can't say if that's really correct, but I think it makes sense to most of us.

[MikeJ]

Now I am confused..

My understanding is that the scale is based on the Key whereas the Mode is a scale based on the chord that may well be in another Key..
C Mixolydian is in the key of F hence has a Bb
C Lydian is in the Key of G which has an F# etc

ie I am playing in the Key of G over a Cmaj chord I can use the C Lydian scale... CDEF#GABC which is essensially a G scale starting and ending on a C ..

The Mixolydian mode you mention GABCDEF is G Mixolydian not C Mixolydian ie a G chord (dominant 7) played in the key of C hence no sharps or flats..

Hopefully that makes some sence?.. let me know if I have it confused but that the way I understand it...

Mike

[Ron Stern]

Originally Posted by guitar-monkey

Hi Ron,

I think most of us would call G A B C D E F G 'G Mixolydian', since it's a Mixolydian mode and it's 'tonic' is G. We'd know that the parent scale is C Major because the Mixolydian mode starts on the fifth degree of its parent scale.

I don't get it. You knew what the parent scale was because you knew what the fifth degree of the parent scale was? How do you find the fifth degree of the parent scale before you find the parent scale?

[Ron Stern]

Originally Posted by MikeJ

Now I am confused..

My understanding is that the scale is based on the Key whereas the Mode is a scale based on the chord that may well be in another Key..

I've never seen that. What is "the chord"? A mode has seven notes, same as a scale. That's some chord.

[guitar-monkey]

Originally Posted by Ron Stern

I don't get it. You knew what the parent scale was because you knew what the fifth degree of the parent scale was? How do you find the fifth degree of the parent scale before you find the parent scale?

I'm looking at G Mixolydian. I know that G is the fifth degree of its parent scale because it's Mixolydian mode, which always starts on the fifth degree of its parent scale. So, to find its parent scale, I go back five notes: G-F-E-D-C -- the parent scale's C Major.

Obviously, I wouldn't really do the exercise of counting backwards like that. I can just picture the interval of a fifth with a G top note to figure out that the parent key is C; or, probably easier, picture a fourth starting on G.

It's always made sense to me that way. I think I get what you're saying in your original post, but to me it seems like a more complicated way of thinking about it. I'm guessing that to you it's the other way round -- my way of thinking about it seems more complicated. Probably best to just see it however it makes sense to you.

[MikeJ]

Hi Ron
What I meant to say is the letter name of the mode is taken from the chord..
ie a G7 chord is in the key of C and the mode starting from the G is GABCDEFG and is called the G Mixolydian.
a G major chord could be in the keys of G (Ionian mode) or D (Lydian mode)
in the key of G GABCDEF#G Ionian
in the key of D GABC#EF#G Lydian

The mode letter is taken from the chord. The scale is from the parent scale and runs from the chord name (G) to the chord name (G) or Whatever chord you are working with.

is that a better explanation?

cheers

Mike

[Ron Stern]

Originally Posted by guitar-monkey

I'm looking at G Mixolydian. I know that G is the fifth degree of its parent scale because it's
Mixolydian mode, which always starts on the fifth degree of its parent scale. So, to find its parent scale, I go back five notes: G
-F-E-D-C -- the parent scale's C Major.

You're positing that there is such a thing as "G Mixolydian" right at the start. What is it? A scale? A mode? Both? Neither?
G Mixolydian what? Mixolydian is an adjective.

I get the method but not the point. G=5 because G is the fifth degree of C (the C major scale). Therefore you went back five
notes on the Mixolydian mode of C major (not "G Mixolydian"). Then you call the result "G Mixolydian". Why? "The
Mixolydian mode of C major" = "G Mixolydian"? What does this new term describe, exactly? A mode, a scale, what? Two
terms, one uses C, the other G, and they mean the same thing? That to which you refer is not the G major scale, nor any of its
modes. True, it starts on G. That's part of the definition of the Mixolydian mode of C major.

And how does that Bb get in there, eventually?

Originally Posted by guitar-monkey

Obviously, I wouldn't really do the exercise of counting backwards like that. I can just picture the
interval of a fifth with a G top note to figure out that the parent key is C; or, probably easier, picture a fourth starting on G.

Sounds like counting to me. Start from G, down 5 or up 4. Anyway, why did you pick a G top note? G can be in a lot of scales
and must be a different scale degree in each one, because every scale has it's defining sequence of steps and half-steps. It is
indeed the fifth degree of the Mixolydian mode of C. What degree is G in the Mixolydian mode of G?

And how about that Bb?

[Ron Stern]

Originally Posted by MikeJ

What I meant to say is the letter name of the mode is taken from the chord..
ie a G7 chord is in the key of C

In my understanding, not necessarily. One chord doesn't make a key unless it's the only chord, I guess. Maybe not even then.

[Ron Stern]

Originally Posted by Bill_J

I am not entirely sure what you are trying to say, but C, D, E, F, G, A, Bb, C is C mixolydian and is played from the 5th scale tone (C) in the F major scale.

"Mixolydian mode (!) (in key of C): The Mixolydian scale (!) contains a flattened 7th . . . C D E F G A Bb C"

Ralph Denyer, The Guitar Handbook.

No mention of F major scale.

[MikeJ]

When talking Major keys

A Dominant 7th chord will imply only one key..
Diminished one key (is actually 4 as each has 4 names)
Major Two possible
Minor three possible

Sure many chords will show up and could be either passing chords, Subs or effectively moving the tonal center (changing the key) of a song but the above is a good guide..

Hence if you see a G7 Chord more than likely you are in the key of C.

The Bb is from the C7th chord CEGBb which is in the Key of F (not C) and is the C Mixolydian mode CDEFGABbC..

Apologies if I am still confusing things ..

Best regards

Mike

[guitar-monkey]

Hi Ron,

It's standard to call the fifth mode of the C Major scale 'G Mixolydian Mode'. It's very common to abbreviate that to 'G Mixolydian' (in context, it seems obvious to most people what the adjective is qualifying).

So, yes, G Mixolydian mode is not the G Major scale, nor is it one of its modes. It's the Mixolydian mode that starts on a G, or the fifth mode of the C Major scale.

There'll never be a Bb in any of the modes derived from the C Major scale. There's a Bb in the C Mixolydian mode, since the C Mixolydian mode is derived from the F Major scale. You'd call that 'the Mixolydian mode of F' -- possibly the correct terminology, I can't really say, but definitely not very common.

[MikeJ]

Originally Posted by Ron Stern

"Mixolydian mode (!) (in key of C): The Mixolydian scale (!) contains a flattened 7th . . . C D E F G A Bb C"

Ralph Denyer, The Guitar Handbook.

No mention of F major scale.

All that's to complicated for me..

In my mind if you say Mixolydian you are starting a scale from the 5th note of the parent scale.. I know how to play an F scale so playing in F starting on the C (the fifth note) I end up with C mixolydian Scale. Which will sound OK over a C7 chord. And yes this is a C scale with a flatterned 7th.

All depends on how complicated you want to look at it.

Mike

[randalljazz]

scales are not the "parent" of modes. modes precede scales. if you're going to be fussy, study your music history.

[MikeJ]

Not trying to be fussy.. just articulate what I was trying to say (perhaps not in the most articulate way but I try)..

Cheers

Mike

[randalljazz]

Originally Posted by MikeJ

Not trying to be fussy.. just articulate what I was trying to say (perhaps not in the most articulate way but I try)..

Cheers

Mike

my comment was addressed to the op.

[Ron Stern]

When you can find the parent major scale for any mode, let's look at modes the other way: as unique scales, each with its own spelling . . . [i.e.] V Mixolydian 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 8

Barrett Tagliarino, Chord Tone Soloing

Apply this formula to C Major and you get C, D, E, F, G, A, Bb, C as described by Mr. Denyer, and the example of the original post.

A unique scale. Therefore not the C major scale. Not the Mixolydian mode, or any mode, of the C major scale, though it begins and ends on C.

What are these two authors talking about?

[Ron Stern]

Originally Posted by guitar-monkey

There's a Bb in the C Mixolydian mode, since the C Mixolydian mode is derived from the F Major scale.

The Guitar Handbook says the Mixolydian mode is G A B C D E F G. How was that derived from the F major scale? And why, oh why, would you call a mode of the F scale, a C mode?

[danjw]

think you're kind of over complicating things here!!!!
For a start the semantics of what the terms mean is unimportant. just know this:
Cmajor is the same as Gmixolydian
Cmixolydian is the same as Fmajor
A mixolydian mode is a major scale starting from the 5th note.
Fact.
millions of people around the world know this and have done for hundreds of years.
you haven't uncovered a hidden truth. you're just wrong

[bako]

Mick Goodrick uses the terms derivative and parallel in his book the Advancing Guitarist to describe 2 approaches to generating "modes" in the contemporary usage of the phrase.

Derivative: the modes coming from one scale

Generator Scale: C D E F G A B C

I- CDEFGABC
II- DEFGABCD
III-EFGABCDE
IV-FGABCDEF
V-GABCDEFG
VI-ABCDEFGA
VII-BCDEFGAB

Parallel: Using an interval formula in relation to the Major scale of the same letter.

I- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
II- 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 8
III- 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8
IV- 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7 8
V-1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 8
VI-1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8
VII-1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 8

In relation to Root C

I- C D E F G A B C
II-C D Eb F G A Bb C
III-C Db Eb F G Ab Bb C
IV-C D E F# G A B C
V- C D E F G A Bb C
VI-C D Eb F G Ab Bb C
VII-C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C

Theory is a description and organizing tool of real world sonic phenomena that is intended to aid our understanding and consequently our ability to execute certain sounds on our instrument. There are right and wrong answers when taking a test in school but out in the world a concept is either helpful or not. No one theory concept is fluid for all situations and for all people.I believe what Ron Stein is describing as a "modulated scale" is related to the parallel approach.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

sounds like we're complicating the simple here.

yup, i was right.

[Ron Stern]

Thanks, Bako.

So there are three things (at least), not two.

1. A Scale.

2. A mode which derives from scale, which Mr. Goodrick calls a "derivative mode".

3. Another scale, or if you insist, another mode, which derives from the scale and the derivative mode, which Mr. Goodrick calls a "parallel mode". What is parallel to what? If one may ask.

It's good to call to two things two things and not one. Otherwise you get into something like saying, a pair of shoes has a left shoe and the other left shoe. Oh heck let's just call them both left because they're both shoes.

[Ron Stern]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

yup, i was right.

Are you saving your explanation of the difference between a derivative mode and a parallel mode til later?