Quatral Harmony confusion..

[MarkInLA]

In this mode of playing can one assume that there is no such thing as a minor quatral chord ? If we're in C, the only way to imply a minor chord such as F-, we have to apply an Ab stack of fourths. Yes ? Otherwise, taking an F quatral chord and and lowering the Bb in it to Ab, we defeat or even cheat the idea of quatral harmony. Yes ?
So, can we conclude that in order to play, say "Lullaby of BirdLand" we either mix tertial harmony with quatral throughout, or stay all quatral ? If "L of Birdland's" first chords are [:C mi. Am-6 / D-7 G7 ] <( 2 four beat bars), what is correct , guatral:Eb Ab Db Gb chord, or C Eb G tertial chord ? Yet the Gb in the quatral is a half step below the first two melody notes. I'm guessing most answers will be to mix them up and use them where we can, while retaining traditional harmony where we have to...yes ?....Mark

[Nate Miller]

The way I look at it, whenever you play quartal harmony, you are throwing traditional major/minor out the window. At that point you are dividing up the octave in stacks of 4s. A lot of time guys will use the notes of a minor pentatonic scale to "Base" the stacks of 4s off of.

So when you want to leave traditional harmony, use the stacks of 4ths. I play that one in 4 flats, but in your key I would think stacks of 4th off the notes in the C minor pentatonic scale would give you a good launch pad. Remember to slide around by a half step. Come back to earth at the bridge hard and swingin and you'll knock 'em stiff.

[Stuart Elliott]

Quartal chord: C-F-Bb-Eb. Call this a Cm11.

For Fm quartal sound: F-Bb-Eb-Ab. Fm11

[Nate Miller]

ok, let me ask a question now...when you guys say "quartal harmony" what exactly are you all talking about?



I'm not talking suspended 4ths, which is what C-F-Bb-Eb and F-Bb-Eb-Ab played in isolation would be

If I heard that for just one chord I would not think "ok now we're in quartal harmony, jettison the triads"

I would hear a simple suspension

When I am saying quartal harmony, I'm thinking more like McCoy playing those huge impressionistic washes of 4ths behind Trane

when I'm playing quartal harmony, I'm taking up big chunks of time, whole sections of the form. Not just one chord.

Somebody want to explain how this term is being used by you all in this day and age?

[bako]

Quartal voicings often imply function rather than fully articulate all of the basic chord tones.

Cm7 (dorian context)

C F Bb Eb ..... 1 11 b7 b3

D G C F ........ 9 5 1 11

Eb A D G ...... b3 6 9 5

F Bb Eb A ..... 11 b7 b3 13

G C F Bb ....... 5 1 11 b7

A D G C ......... 6 9 5 1

Bb Eb A D ...... b7 b3 6 9

None of these voicings individually if voiced mid to upper register will contradict Cm7.
Chords that contain Eb state the essence of Cm with the greatest clarity (from this collection).

[Nate Miller]

I think I'll think about this the way that I think about it.

I'll have to post something later this week over in the showcase so I can just play what I'm talking about

when I go outside the changes, I like to leave and come back. On my way out the door, I'll break into quartal harmony, and when I get ready to come back in the house, I sort of wipe my boots off on the porch with quartal harmony to come back

now what you have there bako, is a lot like what I was saying, too.

In your example the 4ths are built off the scale tones of C Dorian (for you folks playing along at home, always use the raised 6th of the minor mode with this sort of thing). That's exactly what I do, just toss the 2nd and 6th

But that is the idea, for sure.

So what I do is basically suspend the harmonic progression for a period of time and play 4ths off of those scale tones. Then if I'm really going to go out there, I take a walk right off the end of the gang plank from that point.

[MarkInLA]

OK. So, again, "L of Birdland" in C- (tertial); 1st two eight notes of melody are G ( "lull a [bye of Birdland"]. I employ the C melodic minor scale or C Dorian and build the quatral stack, bottom to top, on the 3rd degree of C melodic Min. or C Dorian, Eb. Thus I get the two G melody notes on top by building a quatral stack: Eb Ab D G . Correct ? What I believe I didn't get was that in quatral, we still build the stacks above Maj, Min, and Dorian tercial scales. So, for an extreme example I can use B locrian : B C D E F G A. Thus, if I need an E melody note I stack the quatral chord, bottom to top, C F B E . If next melody note is G, stack is : E A D G. .. B on top would be: G C F B. Correct ? Finally, the entire key can change from B Locrian to A#, A, G#, G, etc. Locrian, to boot. And is the same, of course, for the 6 other modes. Yes ?

[Nate Miller]

yes. That's the idea. The stacks of 4s are still placed at scale steps.

That's an interesting idea, actually, of applying them over all sorts of modes of diatonic scales. I've not really thought about that.

remember, though, if you are staying true to the diatonic scale, there is an augmented 4th in there. That's where plowing right through with stacks of 4s on minor pentatonics comes in right handy. No need to worry about anything there. But if you were being precise and moving 4ths through the diatonic intervals, there's that augmented 4th to work with

but the short answer is yes, you are on the right track

[MarkInLA]

Funny Nate, saying "on the right track". I was over at my hobby forum "Trainboard.com" while you were entering it !!
Wow, I had no idea I'd stumbled onto a different method of stacking or locating places to stack quads. Yeah, the tritones B-F, F-B. or 4th degree and 7th degree of major and minor scales. Looks like 'natural minor' is all 4ths, no tritone ( Aug 4/Dim 5th). Finally, I think it's a given that, though it's possible to do, we're not going to play an entire number in all quad; not unless it's say, our own composition..Could we play "Who Can I Turn To ?" in all quad ? Well...........maybe...Since the first 2 melody notes are 9ths on a Maj 7 chord (Bb Maj 9) it doesn't seem like it would fly...

P.S. I believe you meant to say "boots off on the porch with tertial harmony" at 8:45 Am above.
P.P.S. Thanks also to Bako and Stuart....

[JonR]

Looks like 'natural minor' is all 4ths, no tritone ( Aug 4/Dim 5th).

No, it has a #4/b5 too, because of course it's a mode of major. Every mode of the major scale contains a tritone, while modes of harmonic minor and melodic minor contain two each.

Finally, I think it's a given that, though it's possible to do, we're not going to play an entire number in all quad; not unless it's say, our own composition..Could we play "Who Can I Turn To ?" in all quad ? Well...........maybe...Since the first 2 melody notes are 9ths on a Maj 7 chord (Bb Maj 9) it doesn't seem like it would fly...

Try it and see.
The thing about quartal harmony is it tends to degrade the function of chords, by subverting their tertian identity.
The identity of a quartal chord is always somewhat ambiguous. So applying them in functional sequences (in major and minor keys) will blur the changes.
That's not a bad effect necessarily (depends on your taste!), just something you need to be aware of.

P.S. I believe you meant to say "boots off on the porch with tertial harmony" at 8:45 Am above.

...and the word is "tertian" - and quartal, not quatral, btw )

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Comrades, do you make an effort to play quartal chords in shapes other than stacked fourths?

For example, here are the "drop 2" versions of Dm7sus4:

xx0213
xx5535
xx7788 <-- stacked
xx10.12.10.10

[Nate Miller]

Comrades, do you make an effort to play quartal chords in shapes other than stacked fourths?

generally no, but you have a good idea there.

I picked all this up from listening to piano players. McCoy Tyner probably had the biggest influence on me. It seems like those stacks across 3 or 4 strings sounded a lot like what I was hearing on the records

so that's what I do the most

[bako]

Comrades, do you make an effort to play quartal chords in shapes other than stacked fourths?

Yes, as well as 3 note 4th structures and their inversions.

[mr. beaumont]

Comrades, do you make an effort to play quartal chords in shapes other than stacked fourths?

For example, here are the "drop 2" versions of Dm7sus4:

xx0213
xx5535
xx7788 <-- stacked
xx10.12.10.10

I
use all of those, but I never really thought of them as quartal voicings, I guess!

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Yes, as well as 3 note 4th structures and their inversions.

I guess I take a haphazard approach to that. Right now I considered playing three notes from A-D-G-C on the top three strings:

xxx213
xxx233
xxx533
xxx535
xxx585
xxx785
xxx788
xxx.12.10.10
xxx.12.13.10
xxx.14.13.10

There are lots of them!

[MarkInLA]

JONR, you are right. I don't know how I missed the tritones in quartal stacks over the natural minor scale (Aeolian mode) ! In A Min. the 3rd degree, C, has an F and B right over it. And, of course, the 7th degree begins F up to B ! Mea culpa ... And yes, I was misspelling tertian and quartal.. Thanks, Mark

[JonR]

Comrades, do you make an effort to play quartal chords in shapes other than stacked fourths?

For example, here are the "drop 2" versions of Dm7sus4:

xx0213
xx5535
xx7788 <-- stacked
xx10.12.10.10

IMO, the idea with quartal chords is to - er - make them quartal (stack 4ths), to avoid the hints of tertian function you get with chords built in 5ths and 3rds.

So I use xx0213 commonly, but I'd just call it "D7sus4", and wouldn't think of it as a quartal chord at all (much). I.e., it sounds like a conventional suspension, where the G would tend to resolve down (to F# not F. If I saw "Dm7sus4", I'd treat it as Dm11 and attempt to include the F as well as the G.)

xx5535, however, at least has the 4th on the bottom, and is usefully ambiguous. Is it G9sus? or Csus2? D7sus?
xx7788 is wholly quartal, and even more ambiguous. D7sus? Am11? F69?
(Another option I might choose for Dm7sus4/Dm11 would be xx-10-10-8-8; assuming a D bass elsewhere...)

IOW, I would use such shapes, but (probably) only where I wanted to mask the chord's function, or where the chord wasn't functional anyway.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

One use of these ("destacked"? they could use a snappy nickname) shapes would be doing some chordal stuff in a modal setting, like comping to So What or serving up some melodic riffs to the same. I get tired of just stacked fourths.

[Ron Hoggard]

David Berkman (The Jazz Harmony Book) has a very insightful treatment of quartal harmony (Chapter 15). His discussion of "collapsible" quartal chords is very interesting. These chords are quartal in function but no longer in shape. In a day or so, I will have finished digitizing this chapter in Finale (just for teaching purposes) if anyone is interested. You can download a free player from the MakeMusic web site that will accommodate this Finale file. Berkman delves into this and other points of jazz harmony in a very refreshing and novel way. Anyway, great post and interesting replies........

[bako]

BDLH,

"destacked", that's pretty funny.

Mixed voicings and inversions can lend some additional nuance as you point out.
If one can hear a relationship with a musical application, how much does it matter
whether it has been officially certified by the "board of quartal administration" (BQA).

Another path to establish movement is via passing chords.
The following shows a quartal chord scale pairing of D dorian and A altered.

Ex.

D G C F .......... Eb A C# G

E A D G .......... F Bb Eb A

F B E A .......... G C F Bb

G C F B .......... A C# G C

A D G C .......... Bb Eb A C#

B E A D ........... C F Bb Eb

C F B E .......... C# G C F

[JonR]

One use of these ("destacked"? they could use a snappy nickname) shapes would be doing some chordal stuff in a modal setting, like comping to So What or serving up some melodic riffs to the same. I get tired of just stacked fourths.

Sure - I was thinking more the other way round: the effect of quartal voicings in functional harmony.

In a modal tune like So What, the principle began with stacks of 4ths, precisely to avoid functional associations of tertian voicing - to clear the decks, as it were. But now we're more used to modal sounds, mixing it up with all kinds of other shapes is fine.

[Ron Hoggard]

Interestingly, David Berkman (Jazz Harmony Book) refers to the "So What Voicings" as ".... constructed by placing a 3rd on top of a 4 note fourth voicing."

[Nate Miller]

In a modal tune like So What, the principle began with stacks of 4ths, precisely to avoid functional associations of tertian voicing - to clear the decks, as it were. But now we're more used to modal sounds, mixing it up with all kinds of other shapes is fine.

That's really interesting. You see, the whole way I use quartal harmony is to "clear the decks". I'm going out and planning on staying out.

To hear that now days, people mix these up more with regular chords is interesting. really interesting.

that's goes right to the heart of my "style stuck in 1955" thing. Its like a generation gap.

I may fool around with this idea a little

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Interestingly, David Berkman (Jazz Harmony Book) refers to the "So What Voicings" as ".... constructed by placing a 3rd on top of a 4 note fourth voicing."

That's right off the piano chords, which I think of as min11 chords rather than straight quartal stacks.