Starting with a Diminished Chord...?

[flatfive]

If I begin with a diminished chord, and I lower one tone, I get a 7th, no matter which one I choose.

Raising one tone, I get a minor 6th or the top of a 9th chord. Raising another I get a minor 6th. Raising another I get a 9th...or something else. After that, I am kind of lost as to what get. A Mb5?

There is something real interesting going on here that I am trying to grasp and I need a little insight. I feel like this might be a big key to opening some doors. My musical sense tells me that there are scales that apply too, but my brain is too taxed.

What is going on here. Am I barking up the right tree? Can anybody toss me a lifeline?

[peterk1]

This isn't at all what you asked for, but one of the coolest things about diminished chords....

Play a 4 note dimished chord....look at the notes under your fingers.
Now slide up three frets....look at the notes under your fingers...
Now slide up three frets again....

Notice it? You can do one more slide and still get the same result.

So your first diminished has the same names as 3 other diminished chords.

[flatfive]

This isn't at all what you asked for, but one of the coolest things about diminished chords....

Play a 4 note dimished chord....look at the notes under your fingers.
Now slide up three frets....look at the notes under your fingers...
Now slide up three frets again....

Notice it? You can do one more slide and still get the same result.

So your first diminished has the same names as 3 other diminished chords.

I am aware of that, but I'm so thrilled that SOMEBODY actually responded to this thread at all. Maybe I just asked a stupid question, I dunno.

Hey, if you play an augmented chord and go up five frets, there is a similar thing happening.

[JohnW400]

What you have here is the Pat Martino method of 4 note 7th chords. Check out his web for more. You work up from the diminished 7 one note at a time and you get

mi7b5 (mi6)
mi7
dominant 7th
major 7th

[derek]

What you have here is the Pat Martino method of 4 note 7th chords. Check out his web for more. You work up from the diminished 7 one note at a time and you get

mi7b5 (mi6)
mi7
dominant 7th
major 7th

Yes, Pat considers Diminished and Augmented chords as "parental" chord forms and works his way from there. Pretty much the opposite of how we were all taught to work outward from the major chord. A very guitarcentric view, but pretty cool the way it works. Clearly works for Pat.

[FatJeff]

Yes, Pat considers Diminished and Augmented chords as "parental" chord forms and works his way from there. Pretty much the opposite of how we were all taught to work outward from the major chord. A very guitarcentric view, but pretty cool the way it works. Clearly works for Pat.

Not sure how it's guitar-centric? These are just notes, regardless of which instrument they're played on, right?

[flatfive]

What you have here is the Pat Martino method of 4 note 7th chords. Check out his web for more. You work up from the diminished 7 one note at a time and you get

mi7b5 (mi6)
mi7
dominant 7th
major 7th

Bingo! That's what I've been curious about. I'm not seeing the Major 7th, but I'll check out your link. Thanks!

[JohnW400]

If you see the dominant, raise the 7th a half step more

[flatfive]

If you see the dominant, raise the 7th a half step more

Gotcha. I was at first stuck in thinking of only moving one tone in the diminished chord.

[FatJeff]

I actually like this way of thinking...seems pretty intuitive to me. How does the augmented version work??

[JohnW400]

Pat Martino

Go to the section "The Nature of Guitar". The link is on the left I think page 2 or 3 is where he gets into it

[wolflen]

i think of dim7th chords as 7b9(NR) chords a half step higher...in many cases this opens the possibilities up considerably...as you now have four 7b9 chords to work with...include the substitutions this opens up..and your range increases alot..

Cdim7 C Eb/D# Gb/F# A
B7b9 b9 ....3 . ....5 .b7

play well

wolf

[derek]

Not sure how it's guitar-centric? These are just notes, regardless of which instrument they're played on, right?

Sure, but when you look at it on the fretboard compared to other instruments, it clearly works well for guitar.

[voelker]

here's something i posted on this topic a few months ago...

i just recently started studying pat martino sacred geometry, i understand the concept, but being able to utilize it is another story. its a totally different approach, in that instead of thinking in major, minor, dominant, and half diminished chords, which all have different interval structures (ex.major7=1-M3rd-3-m3rd-5-M3rd-7-M2nd-1) you think in augmented chords, fully diminished chords, and tritones, which divide the 12 notes by the same interval (ex.augmented=1-M3rd-b3-M3rd-b5-M3rd-1) this allows you to play the same fingering in different positions and get the same group of notes arranged differently. you probably already know you can slide a diminished chord up and down in minor thirds(Bdim=Ddim=Fdim=Abdim), or an augmented chord in major thirds, but the beauty is in how these chords can lead to or be part of many other chords. every augmented chord is part of 3 different mi(maj7) chords. slide any note down a half step and get 3 different major triads, slide any note up a half step and get 3 minor triads or the upper part of a maj7 chord. sliding a tritone up or down a half step gives you perfect 4ths and 5ths. now this is where it gets crazy. Bdim is part of (G7b9, Db7b9, E7b9, Bb7b9) Slide any note in a Bdim chord down a half step and you get a straight dom7 chord(G7, Db7, E7, Bb7) and each of these with a tritone root creates a dom7b5b9 chord. sliding any one note up a half step can give you four different half dim chords or the upper part of four different dom7#5b9. Sliding two notes up or down (ex. 1,3 or 3,5 or 5,7 or 7,1 or 1,5 or 3,7) gives you a bunch of different dom9#5, dom7b5, m7, major6, and sus chords. so by utilizing these three basic structures you are able to find tons of other chords without moving too much, not to mention all the cool passing notes you'll find. nice work if you can get it. hope this all makes sense. I suggest making some web diagrams. Ex. write (B D F Ab) in the middle of a piece of paper, put one shifted note above or below the original chord tone draw a line into open space on the paper and write down the chords it creates. do this for each chord tone, then start a new diagram and shift 2 notes. good luck

[voelker]

here is some more

don't get too overwhelmed by all the chords. you obviously cant think about all of that while your playing and there are a lot more applications than i mentioned. i was just trying to show the versatility of this concept. Ingeneri brings up a good point; traditional theory is based on the piano (that includes all the chord names i mentioned) Piano players have eight white keys and use the same fingering to get 3 different triads(major,minor, dim) and they know how to alter each of these by moving a halfstep up or down to a black key. its all about reference points. could you imagine playing a piano with all white keys? youd be lost. ive felt lost many times on the guitar, maybe because it's not color coded, ultimately the dim7 and augmented chords are the white keys on the guitar and you learn how to alter them by a halfstep (black keys) to find different chords

It has many improvisation applications. For a 2-5-1, Try a Ddim7 arpeggio that ends on the B into a Gaug arpeggio that starts on the B so (D, F, Ab, B, Eb G) Try starting the Ddim7 on the B ending on the Ab and sliding down a half step to the G aug that starts on the G ends on the Eb and slides down a half step to the (D) so (B, D, F, Ab, G, B, Eb, D) here is a good ear exercise. Put on a backing track and don’t think about the key your in. find a good note and move a minor third. If it sounds good, move another minor third. If it sounds bad slide it up or down a half step most likely one of these will sound good. Continue moving in minor thirds and sliding up or down on bad notes. You can do the same with major thirds

[FatJeff]

That's pretty heady stuff...but it sounds really compelling. I'll have to print out your posts and study them. Is this "sacred geometry" a book?

[flatfive]

voelker--I think you just gave me about five years worth of learning and assimilation, but that is what I am looking for. I have been looking at everything through the same old lens for so long, I need to be jarred into something fresh. Even a slight revelation is a new open door, and all this stuff is endless. I have always had to take new concepts in slowly until I get a small piece at a time and become able to USE it.

All this will be an interesting journey.

[bako]

I think all learning is best accomplished by expanding on that which is already known.

In this regard symetrical stuctures like the diminished and augmented chords are very interesting because the modifications yield x 4 and x 3 respectively.

The diminished will yield the 4 inversions of that structure in 4 different keys. If you play them every 3 frets then you will have all 4 inversions for each of those chords. If you play these shapes on any 3 consecutive frets then you have this chord type in all 12 different keys.

With augmented it yields various 3 note structures including triads but repetitions occur at 4 frets and requires 4 consecutive frets to get all 12 keys.

[voelker]

i don't know if there is a book, but i've heard there is an article on pat martinos website, i don't think i've read his, but the articles i have read included some diagrams that really help you visualize all the information.

[pauln]

I know I'm entertaining an old thread, but the links don't work; here is an overview and walk through of the mechanics of the system...

Pat Martino’s The Nature of the Guitar:
An Intersection of Jazz Theory and Neo-Riemannian Theory