How do you use the "Thesaurus of scales and melodic patterns"?

memyselfandus · #1 03-11-2009, 06:16 PM

How do you use the "Thesaurus of scales and melodic patterns"?

has anyone made lesson plans or anything out of this book?
It fascinates me!

JohnW400 · #2 03-11-2009, 08:43 PM

If your talking about the Slomninsky book, There's lot's you can do. The idea is to analize the pattern. Figure out what it's about.

But that's key with any melodic pattern. See what makes it tick and fool with it like figure out the scale and scale degrees and then change the scale but keep the degree's (ie. make a Cmajor pattern a C harmonic minor pattern and then a C melodic minor pattern or even modes or whathave you)

Bailz · #3 03-12-2009, 06:30 PM

I was talking to a friend about this a few days ago. we went through the glossary and tested each other on the terms in the glossary. we found that something quite complex sounding is simply a minor 3rd for example.

I dont ever use this book for anything musical. i think that i might discover one of these scales by just playing and then i would call it something that the book wouldnt call it.

for me the book makes complexities of things that, for me, dont need to be so complex. not to say that the book isnt a work of art.

Bailz

JohnW400 · #4 03-12-2009, 08:32 PM

I agree. There could be many different names for a scale , especialy some of the pentatonic variations.

After going through a few different types of scale systems, (5,6,7 &8 note systems) I've learned not to worry about the name but more about how they function.

If you think about onlt three types of sounds, major, minor and dominant , you can pick 3 scales for your reference point. (major, mixolydian and minor) and reference just about every other scale as one of those three but with some king of alteration to one f the other notes in that scale.

Lydian sound, Think major scale with a raised 4th. Dominant lydian sound, then it's mixolydian with a raised 4th

If you hear say , major with a b2 , flamneco type, play a major scale with a b2. If you also hear this same scale with a lydian flavor as well, then sharp the 4. Who cares what it's called. It's what it sounds like.

bako · #5 03-12-2009, 09:09 PM

Yes the terminology is a little over the top for the dinner table but he explains all the terms clearly. He presents several interesting methods of generating patterns, scales and note collections. It was intended as a resource book for the contemporary composers of the late 1940's. It can also serve as a tool for improvisors. There is no more methodology in the Thesaurus than there is in a dictionary. Play,analyze and experiment with material from different sections of the book. Apply in tonal and less tonal contexts. Keep what you like and ignore the rest.

ES350 · #6 04-01-2009, 10:32 AM

There is a useful section of the book that has arpeggio patterns for polychords, with obvious applications for altered chords/stacked triads...the twelve tone patterns are also useful for coming up with some out of the box melodic ideas...

OLIVER · #7 05-22-2009, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnW400

If your talking about the Slomninsky book, There's lot's you can do. The idea is to analize the pattern. Figure out what it's about.

But that's key with any melodic pattern. See what makes it tick and fool with it like figure out the scale and scale degrees and then change the scale but keep the degree's (ie. make a Cmajor pattern a C harmonic minor pattern and then a C melodic minor pattern or even modes or whathave you)

does Anybody have Slomninsky book.

JohnW400 · #8 05-22-2009, 08:15 AM

I think you can get it from Amazon.com. I'll check around and get back to you

OLIVER · #9 05-22-2009, 08:19 AM

many thanks

JohnW400 · #10 05-22-2009, 08:36 AM

Thesaurus Of Scales And Melodic Patterns - Sheet Music Plus

Amazon.com: Thesaurus Of Scales And Melodic Patterns (Text): Nicolas Slonimsky: Books

Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns, Nicolas Slonimsky, Book - Barnes & Noble

Try these. They had some "Free Download" ones on google but I'm not sure if those links are real or good ones.

OLIVER · #11 05-22-2009, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnW400

Thesaurus Of Scales And Melodic Patterns - Sheet Music Plus

Amazon.com: Thesaurus Of Scales And Melodic Patterns (Text): Nicolas Slonimsky: Books

Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns, Nicolas Slonimsky, Book - Barnes & Noble

Try these. They had some "Free Download" ones on google but I'm not sure if those links are real or good ones.

ok, thanks for information , but I thought that you send me link to "free dowenload". Unfortunately in my country, I can not buy books over internet site.

JohnW400 · #12 05-22-2009, 09:15 AM

Look up "thesaurus of scales and melodic patterns" on Google. About 3 pages in there are some links that say free download. I haven't doen that so I cannot say whether or not they work. You can also try on scribd.com.

OLIVER · #13 05-22-2009, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnW400

Look up "thesaurus of scales and melodic patterns" on Google. About 3 pages in there are some links that say free download. I haven't doen that so I cannot say whether or not they work. You can also try on scribd.com.

I have found

this book on scridb.com, but i can`t download

. Can you halp me

JohnW400 · #14 05-22-2009, 10:19 AM

Sorry, I don't know how to download at that site either. perhaps someone else in this forum can help with that

timscarey · #15 05-22-2009, 03:46 PM

it's exactly that, a thesaurus. use it as you would any other thesaurus. or just transcribe some interesting sounding music and you'll get some new words.

carlosc · #16 05-23-2009, 06:32 AM

I think it's a vocabulary book. A thesaurus of vocabulary. You got stuff like ultrapolation/intrapolation for example. All of them in the key of C. Then you aply those 'pattern' examples to given scales or anyother you like.

In the and, the book gives the most complete studdy of melodic combinations. Tons of combinations of melodic notes. It's all about that, all the melodies that can be made on the guitar.

The book is not making it look dificult or complicated, is just givin tons and tons of melodic possibilities, and also tools to develop more melodies. I just had a quick look over some pages...

Rod Leuname · #17 06-11-2009, 10:05 AM

where can I download this book?

Decapriology1 · #18 08-31-2009, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by memyselfandus

How do you use the "Thesaurus of scales and melodic patterns"?

has anyone made lesson plans or anything out of this book?
It fascinates me!

There are several approaches, and each one depends on your level at the present time.

For a first attempt, I suggest the ear approach (as that's what it all comes down to anyhow) and that is: Play each pattern within each designated heading against each chord quality in all 12 keys. For example, you might begin a single pattern as is, ( non transposed) and play it as is against Cmaj7, C#maj7, Dmaj7...etc. Then C7, C#7, D7, Eb7....etc. C-7...C-7b5...Cdim7...Cmaj7#4 etc, etc. Add alterations as you go along. Do this for every pattern you wish and as far into the book as you desire. Then try to place each pattern into a a mock improvisational scheme; ii, V, I, for example et al.

It is all in the ear in the long haul. The common mistake is getting so hung up in the math and permutations that little time is left for application, assimilation, and above all; music.

-TD

derek · #19 08-31-2009, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Decapriology1

There are several approaches, and each one depends on your level at the present time.

For a first attempt, I suggest the ear approach (as that's what it all comes down to anyhow) and that is: Play each pattern within each designated heading against each chord quality in all 12 keys. For example, you might begin a single pattern as is, ( non transposed) and play it as is against Cmaj7, C#maj7, Dmaj7...etc. Then C7, C#7, D7, Eb7....etc. C-7...C-7b5...Cdim7...Cmaj7#4 etc, etc. Add alterations as you go along. Do this for every pattern you wish and as far into the book as you desire. Then try to place each pattern into a a mock improvisational scheme; ii, V, I, for example et al.

It is all in the ear in the long haul. The common mistake is getting so hung up in the math and permutations that little time is left for application, assimilation, and above all; music.

-TD

Welcome to the group TD.

dani · #20 02-09-2010, 08:33 PM

right now i can't understand this book

franco6719 · #21 02-10-2010, 08:09 AM

I use it once in a while for technical exercise. I don't really "hear" or feel those lines and so it doesn't really work it's way into my improvisational style for that reason, I think. For me, it's an exercise book.

FatJeff · #22 02-10-2010, 08:17 AM

I bought that book a few years ago, looked it over once, and immediately put it on the shelf. It's not been opened since.

The problem is that there is just too much stuff in there, and I can't figure out how to make anything musical out of it. As I've found out since purchasing the book, you don't need a million scales to sound good. Just a few will do, and I can get these elsewhere with an actual explanation (e.g. Levine's book).

Drumbler · #23 02-10-2010, 09:37 AM

You don't need it.

franco6719 · #24 02-10-2010, 01:42 PM

Agreed with FatJeff basically. That's it. It's an overwhelming amount of material actually that would just, for me anyway, get in the way and probably do more harm than good.

Drumbler · #25 02-10-2010, 07:17 PM

You can use it as a doorstop.

guelda · #26 09-01-2010, 07:59 AM

Hi,

as I just got this book, here are my 2 cents :

- some famous players and improvisators (Zappa, Coltrane, Shawn Wallace, to name a few) are known to have used efficiently this book, so I doubt it is something that could do you harm

- at first glance I also thought it won't be useful for me, and I couldn't relate it to the usual sequences used in jazz (ii-V-I, etc.)

- the terms used there seem very complicated but also very precise, so I guess it is his author's personal way to conceive the music, not better or worse than any other, just different

- I just tried today a few examples from the beginning and I found those interesting to hear and practice

So I would say this books seems full of fresh musical ideas, fingerings I'm not used to, and it is also interesting to try and understand how those lines are created (I'm pretty sure some terms like "infra_inter_ultrapolation", even if they are explained at the beginning, will become clearer with experimentation.

I've seen a few vids on youtube with "licks" from or inspired by this book, but the guitar sound didn't please me

Have swing
Guelda

[Edit] I forgot : Steve Vaï and John Coltrane used this book too !

SAWBUCK · #27 01-09-2011, 09:41 PM

I've owned this book for a few years now. I know a lot of great players who use it, and many famous ones as well, like Zappa, Joe Diorio, Stern, Coltrane, etc. Although i have no doubt that if you invest time and thought into this book, it would yield some interesting and usable results, i have just not remained sufficiently interested in it to devote that time. A few years ago, i started to put the examples into a separate manuscript book in one octave, treble clef, just to condense it. after a few pages I would stop and play through each one a few times, and try to relate it to various chords. it was interesting, but ultimately i just lost interest. I know joe diorio used it a lot, and i'm a big fan of his, but i'd rather just go through his books and pick out stuff i like, and ditto with coltrane, stern, etc. I just think it was way too much work for questionable results, and it's not my way of learning. i'd rather play or transcribe a solo i like, and then take what i like from it. I always feel like i should give it another shot, out of guilt or feeling like i'm missing something, but really, i doubt i'll ever use it much.

JonnyPac · #28 01-09-2011, 09:56 PM

There's a dude that teaches guitar at my store that was big into that book back in the late 70's. He busted out some really cool patterns that sounded very 20th century classical. It was impressive. I asked how he could use them in less symmetrical forms to improv over standard jazz changes, and it suddenly sounded a little less musical. The 8-note symmetrical dim coltrane-style runs fit V7 chords ok, but that was it, really as I recall. I think it might be over the top.

I prefer a reductionist standpoint; how much can you milk from a few basic scales. I only use these scales:

1. Chromatic (to connect other scales/modes,etc)
2. Major + Modes
3. Phrygian Dominant
4. Melodic Minor + Modes
5. Diminished Octatonic
6. Whole-tone

These fit everything I want to say in music thus far. I'm sure sifting thru every subset out there will yield some interesting results, but that's not for me.

reventlov · #29 01-09-2011, 10:49 PM

"You can use it as a doorstop."

+1

SAWBUCK · #30 01-09-2011, 10:55 PM

looking thru my notes, i marked a few that sounded cool over an altered 5th in a V7 I; #1, 2, 5, 6, 7, 9, 53, etc. they also yielded some interesting chords when i fooled with the notes. but, as i mentioned earlier (under sawbuck. for some reason i'm having trouble logging in), i don't know how much time i'd want to spend digging in and deciphering this whole book to sort it all out. maybe a little here and there, but don't think i'd want to devote so much time to it....