Does anyone of you use the Coltrane Changes ?

[guelda]

Hi all,

just for curiosity, does anyone of you use in his (hers) soloing the concept of Coltrane change please ? I mean really use, because I guess a lot of us have heard about it, tried some exercises and stuff, but do you use it ?

peace
Guelda

[Stackabones]

I mess with them around the house when practicing, but not that much at gigs (solo git/vox). Most of the tunes I do are Great American Songbook tunes. A while ago, I did a search on songs (not heads, but songs with lyrics) that were based on the Coltrane Changes: I came up empty handed.

[derek]

I don't. I percieve it as an exercise and that is about it. Frankly, other than Coltrane, I have not heard anyone use it or play the tunes JC featured them that sounds convincing. Usually comes across contrived to me, and not very musical. Jimmy Bruno does a CM version on his solo disc that is just smokin, but it almost comes across as a highly advanced etude, like a Pagannini Caprice.

Maybe it is my ignorance, but I am aware of what is going on, but not there in terms of ability. I would say I am open to changing my opinion. Here is one of the most musical guys on the planet doing it. John Patitucci.

YouTube - Giant Steps

[guelda]

Yeah, but I meant using his substitution on other "classical" songs (standards or blues for example). This sounds strange because his change is often described as one of the most important and recent jump ahead in jazz (is this grammatically correct ?)... => the giant STEP

I suppose you must have worked on it and have some arpeggios or licks under your fingers to really use it, as it doesn't come easily in mind or ears when playing.

have swing

[Stackabones]

Originally Posted by guelda

Yeah, but I meant using his substitution on other "classical" songs (standards or blues for example). This sounds strange because his change is often described as one of the most important and recent jump ahead in jazz (is this grammatically correct ?)... => the giant STEP

True. And it's a woodshedding piece that's for sure -- but it seems to get more time and consideration at the universities and among the academic jazz communtiy. Free jazz has also been considered an important jump ahead. Progress doesn't always mean success.

I mentioned earlier that I couldn't find a song w/ lyrics that have the Coltrane Changes, but I recall some players mentioning some heads written around them. I can't recall a tune (mea culpa, not the changes' fault). You'd think that after almost 50 years those changes would've inspired many more tunes?

[JohnW400]

John McLaughlin does "Do you hear the voices you left behind?" on his ELectric Guitarist Album.

They probably would become more useful if you streched them out to be a measure a piece rather than two beats

[derek]

Originally Posted by JohnW400

John McLaughlin does "Do you hear the voices you left behind?" on his ELectric Guitarist Album.

They probably would become more useful if you streched them out to be a measure a piece rather than two beats

My favorite treatment of GS is Joe Pass performing it (Virtuoso 2) as a ballad. He lets it breathe a bit more, but still rips on it. The most tastefully done version I have heard, but still sounds less like a tune and more like an exercise to me.

[Jake Hanlon]

I do use them and variations on them on specific tunes that I like to play where I think it works well enough and won't mess with anyone.

They're fun, they're challenging and also a great way to spice up slow harmonic rhythm.

[bobsguitars09]

What is a Coltrane change?

[Banksia]

The main purpose of the Coltrane changes is to pad out jazz course so that Universities can turn them into full-paying degree courses. This then provides employment for music academic who immediately invent even more nebulous over-analyses of the Coltrane changes so that the Universities can offer advanced degrees in jazz studies and employ more academics.......
The Coltrane changes also have enormous potential for the Music publishers. The simplest way to obscure a simple fact is to publish multiple opinions about the fact.
The whole cult of Coltrane does nothing for me. In the 50's John was a beautiful player, particularly on the Miles Prestige sessions. I have a Coltrane album from the 60's - live in Seattle - and I would rather listen to Yngwie Malmsteen (that isn't a compliment)
To have such intense scrutiny of 1 song in a genre like jazz is a waste of time that could have been spread across such a broad and fertile source of ideas.

[guelda]

Rhaaaaa ! I just wrote an answer but took too much time so it has been deleted !

Anyway, I'll try to get back the idea...

Banksia, ahah funny answer

I recently saw the video "George Benson - The Art of Jazz Guitar" and he demonstrates some chords substitutions upon the blues and melodic lines which outline them. Also, my guitar teacher showed me some crazy melodic lines he invented upon classical changes, mostly using triads but in his own way, it is always related to substituted chords he developed. Those lines sounds kinda out but not too weird because they use triads and he always land on chord tones of the resolving ones.

George Benson says you can play almost everything upon the blues, so I tried to find my own substituted chords and I'm rather glad with what I found (no theory at all behind it). So I will now have to work on some lines outlining those chords.


Coltrane Change can be a way to get started with advanced substitutions (but I guess you must have a good knowledge of the basic changes and subs), before you find your own ones.

Do some of you practice this way sometimes, I mean creating your own subs and melodic lines outlining those new chords ?

peace
Guelda

[pierre richard]

just an exercise I have all my students learn to play...

and a very good exercise it is....

I have always taught students to learn and play things two or three steps above and beyond their repertoire...that makes your learning tunes much less stressful and they come off sounding better the first time you play them

time on the instrument..pierre

[Stackabones]

Originally Posted by Banksia

To have such intense scrutiny of 1 song in a genre like jazz is a waste of time that could have been spread across such a broad and fertile source of ideas.

I Got Rhythm

[Tom Z]

I think we are talking about reharmonizing a song in the Cycle of Fourths (which has been called coltrane changes I think).

There is a good short book with no CD from Aebersold jazz titled "Coltrane: a players guide to his harmony" (for 10 bucks). I think it had a list of tunes that used coltranes harmony. If I recall Eternal Triangle was one of those tunes. They are all a b!tch to play.

If you are interested in just reharmonizing, check out a cd called the "Lounge Art Ensemble Lava Jazz". Peter Erksine is playing the cocktail drum kit (where you stand!), Dave Carpenter on bass and Bob Sheppard on sax. The names of the tunes are the changes being played but the melodies are reharmonized. Kind of neat. No guitar, but I listen to more horn players anyway.

[funnyval]

David Baker wrote an article titled "Extending the Coltrane Changes" in the March 1994 issue of Down Beat that shows how to use them as subs for four measures of II-V-I.

Here's a link to a picture of the article:
Transcription of "Harmonic Substitutions"
The picture is larger than the webpage shows it, so to see it better save the picture then view it directly.

There is a good analysis of Coltrane Changes related to some other tunes at
http://www.justjazz.com/ed/conf.txt

[derek]

Originally Posted by Banksia

The main purpose of the Coltrane changes is to pad out jazz course so that Universities can turn them into full-paying degree courses. This then provides employment for music academic who immediately invent even more nebulous over-analyses of the Coltrane changes so that the Universities can offer advanced degrees in jazz studies and employ more academics.......
The Coltrane changes also have enormous potential for the Music publishers. The simplest way to obscure a simple fact is to publish multiple opinions about the fact.
The whole cult of Coltrane does nothing for me. In the 50's John was a beautiful player, particularly on the Miles Prestige sessions. I have a Coltrane album from the 60's - live in Seattle - and I would rather listen to Yngwie Malmsteen (that isn't a compliment)
To have such intense scrutiny of 1 song in a genre like jazz is a waste of time that could have been spread across such a broad and fertile source of ideas.

I don't see any smilies, so I am assuming you are at least somewhat serious. Coltrane used those changes on more than one tune. Check out the rest of that disc. At the time, these changes were seen as somewhat of a revelation, due to the simplicity of the idea, but the difficulty (as pointed out upstream) to execute. At the very minimum they were seen as a clever reharm of Tune Up. No different than say Donna Lee being a bebop interpretation of Indiana. I am not a big fan of Donna Lee, but like Giant Steps/Coltrane Changes, it is seen as a rite of passage if you will, for jazz players also.

Many fans of more traditional jazz have similar feelings about 60's and beyond Miles and Coltrane. Understandable. They kept moving, and not everyone was please in the directions they moved because of how different it was. Myself, I can only listen to about 10 minutes of Ywngie before I get bored.

The suggestion that these changes have been highlighted or elevated in stature due to academics is a funny assertion to me. This is where I am uncertain of your intent, humorous or serious. Just like Stackabones mentions Rhythm Changes, there are studies of Bird Changes in blues(I mentioned Donna Lee already), and other somewhat unique or signature approaches to harmony or reharmonizing.

Musical theory, by definition, is the analysis of what has been played. I would want to know why academics wouldn't study such a unique approach to ii V I harmony. Seems like a logical place to do that sort of study. Sorry if I have misinterpreted your post.

[memyselfandus]

What is a typical Coltrane change we could apply to all keys?

[Joe Dalton]

I use it for practice, though for reasons that elude me, it comes very natural for me. I've had a much harder time with argueably much easier pieces.

[soulkat9]

I like those chord changes

[JImmyD]

To be able to navigate through Coltrane changes is a rite of passage for jazz players. It is a worthy endeavor. I like the tune, I like the melody and I like the changes, but I'm still not there.

I play with the patterns every now and then. At the very least they are good technical exercises.

Jim

[ES350]

At this point, it is an idiomatic thing that revolves around ii-V acrobatics and much beloved by the academics...like seeing who can the jump the highest while standing in one place. It's the bridge of some obscure Kern tune IIRC, and I don't think I'm ever going to play it. Give me a melody, some nice changes (not necessarily ii-V), and let's play. I love Trane, but this is not of of his better tunes IMHO...

[woodstalk]

To me, the "Coltrane changes" are another musical way to break up the octave. Rather than break it into 4 minor thirds (diminished) you split the octave into three intervals of major thirds.
Simple exercise: Play C major 7, now go down a M3rd and play Ab Major 7, now down another M3rd to E major 7, and finally down another major 3rd to C major 7. Now put the V7 chord in front of the Ab, E, and last C chord and you've got the foundation of Coltrane changes. Check the bridge to "Have you met miss jones".

Like all things musical, it is worth your time to become familiar with the concept behind these changes. As for putting it into your playing, try using this concept over modal vamps to get outside in an interesting way. You might have to change some chord types but you can make it work. I hear a lot of this in Kurt Rosenwinkel's music. Check him out playing Coltrane's 26-2, if that doesn't peak your interest in learning what's behind Coltrane changes then I don't know what will. Maybe Coltrane.

How to use over a simple ii V I: Take a familiar ii V I like D min7 G7 C major7. As shown on David Baker's page linked above, you can Coltrane this up by splitting the octave into major thirds. Moving up by major 3rds from C, you get E, G#/Ab, and then C again. Approach each chord from its V7 and you've got it. Two beats each: Dmin7 Eb7 Ab Major7 B7 E Major 7 G7 C major 7. To be used over the standard D min7 G7 C major 7.

[franco6719]

When I play along with the Aebersold version of "Tune Up", I often would try to run the Coltrane changes on it. But it sounded so bizarre, forced and artificial and just plain WRONG to me ears, that I stopped doing it and generally gave up on the idea of using Coltrane changes on standard tunes, except by Coltrane. I often use the general patterns and similar things to go outside on modal tunes though and I like the sound of it in that sort of context.

[gravitas]

I don't often play giant steps or countdown unless I'm practicing or jamming with other musicians... But there's a gorgeous ballad by Coltrane called Central Park West that has a few "Giant Steps" programmed into it. The only recording I could find of it on youtube was this guy playing a chord melody (which is pretty good mind you):

YouTube - John Coltrane - Central Park West, Solo jazz guitar

[Decapriology1]

Originally Posted by guelda

Hi all,

just for curiosity, does anyone of you use in his (hers) soloing the concept of Coltrane change please ? I mean really use, because I guess a lot of us have heard about it, tried some exercises and stuff, but do you use it ?

peace
Guelda

Absolutely, and quite often in place of the usual iii Vi ii V I turnaround. It is major third movement, which means it replaces the Cycle of 5 movement getting back to the tonic. It is *no way* merely an exercise. When in the right hands and ears, can be quite musical.

-TD

[guelda]

Hi all,

thanks for all your answers, I see it can be an effective tool to improvise if you can hear it. In a book from Corey Christiansen, it explains it can be used over major ii-V-I-I (each chord during one measure, two measures of I at the end) in this way :

| iim7 - bIII7 | bIV7M - VII7 | III7M - V7 | I |

so in C : | Dm7 - Eb7 | Ab7M - B7 | E7M - G7 | C7M |
instead of : | Dm7 | G7 | C7M | C7M |

Used like this, you resolve upon C on the very last measure, which gives a pretty hip sound according to Corey. The melodic examples he gives sounds nice but the rhythm section follow the modified chord changes, and the few examples I tried with a regular ii-V-I section didn't sound really good to my ears...

So I was wondering : do some of you use the "Coltrane change" described by Corey (for ex. on a gig where rhythm section keeps straight) ?

peace
Guelda

PS : By the way, the "Giant Steps" in-depth study by Joe Diorio is great, full of interesting ideas, what a musician !

[Jazzarian]

Originally Posted by guelda

Hi all,

just for curiosity, does anyone of you use in his (hers) soloing the concept of Coltrane change please ? I mean really use, because I guess a lot of us have heard about it, tried some exercises and stuff, but do you use it ?

peace
Guelda

This came up recently. There's a nice depiction in Widipedia, replete with equilateral triangle within the Circle of 5ths.

[franco6719]

Originally Posted by guelda

Hi all,

thanks for all your answers, I see it can be an effective tool to improvise if you can hear it. In a book from Corey Christiansen, it explains it can be used over major ii-V-I-I (each chord during one measure, two measures of I at the end) in this way :

| iim7 - bIII7 | bIV7M - VII7 | III7M - V7 | I |

so in C : | Dm7 - Eb7 | Ab7M - B7 | E7M - G7 | C7M |
instead of : | Dm7 | G7 | C7M | C7M |

Used like this, you resolve upon C on the very last measure, which gives a pretty hip sound according to Corey. The melodic examples he gives sounds nice but the rhythm section follow the modified chord changes, and the few examples I tried with a regular ii-V-I section didn't sound really good to my ears...

So I was wondering : do some of you use the "Coltrane change" described by Corey (for ex. on a gig where rhythm section keeps straight) ?

peace
Guelda

PS : By the way, the "Giant Steps" in-depth study by Joe Diorio is great, full of interesting ideas, what a musician !

The Joe Diorio book is just beyond me technically. His II-V-I lines have unison stretches in there that I can't even reach with a sixth finger sometimes. The Corey Christianson stuff is very good. He gets you learning those changes in all keys and applying all sorts of digital patterns over them. It gives you some concrete place to start and a practicing regimen. After a while, it starts to get into your ears and then you might apply in over some simple tunes like Tune Up, etc... Then he takes you through Giant Steps, which is just one application in three key centers.

[franco6719]

Here's a pretty good article by Jim Bastian.

Jazz Exercise: Countdown - Premier Guitar

[Decapriology1]

Originally Posted by guelda

Hi all,

thanks for all your answers, I see it can be an effective tool to improvise if you can hear it. In a book from Corey Christiansen, it explains it can be used over major ii-V-I-I (each chord during one measure, two measures of I at the end) in this way :

| iim7 - bIII7 | bIV7M - VII7 | III7M - V7 | I |

so in C : | Dm7 - Eb7 | Ab7M - B7 | E7M - G7 | C7M |
instead of : | Dm7 | G7 | C7M | C7M |

Used like this, you resolve upon C on the very last measure, which gives a pretty hip sound according to Corey. The melodic examples he gives sounds nice but the rhythm section follow the modified chord changes, and the few examples I tried with a regular ii-V-I section didn't sound really good to my ears...

So I was wondering : do some of you use the "Coltrane change" described by Corey (for ex. on a gig where rhythm section keeps straight) ?

peace
Guelda

PS : By the way, the "Giant Steps" in-depth study by Joe Diorio is great, full of interesting ideas, what a musician !

I also devote a section in my book, Gateway to Guitar Improvisation, calling it "Countdownians." There I demonstrate create lines through the said progression.

-TD