The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Hi,
    I'm new enough to jazz and still getting to grips with some of the harmony involved. The book which I have for college lists out all of the characteristic notes of each mode of the major scale, such as the flat 7 in mixolyidian and the the sharp 4 in lydian etc. The only characteristic is list of Ionian is the 4th. I don't understand why, I thought that it may have something to do with the fact that it's an avoid note but my lecturer told me that's not the case. He wants us to try figure it out but I'm at a loss. The book is one the Harmony 1 Berklee workbook. Any help would be great.
    Thanks.

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  3. #2

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    My guess is that a characteristic note is one that distinguishes that mode from other, similar modes.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    My guess is that a characteristic note is one that distinguishes that mode from other, similar modes.
    So maybe they mean it's characteristic compared to Lydian and Mixolydian because they are major sounding and Lydian has the sharp 4 and Mixolydian has the flat 7? Cool that seems to make sense. I was thinking originally in terms of a sound that really jumps out at you the like the flat 2 in phrygian. The 4th didn't really do that for me with Ionian. But I guess that makes sense.

  5. #4

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    Yup.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by acidskiffle
    So maybe they mean it's characteristic compared to Lydian and Mixolydian because they are major sounding and Lydian has the sharp 4 and Mixolydian has the flat 7? Cool that seems to make sense. I was thinking originally in terms of a sound that really jumps out at you the like the flat 2 in phrygian. The 4th didn't really do that for me with Ionian. But I guess that makes sense.
    Like Ryan says - yup .

    Ionian and Aeolian are "normal", because of their familiarity. It's the other modes that have characteristic notes in comparison with them.

    The 4th in Ionian is an "avoid note" only in the sense that it's the only note you can't add as an extension on the tonic chord; it makes a nasty interval with the 3rd, esp if it's an octave up.
    It's also the one note that fights the tonality, in the sense that it produces the tension in the major key. Arguably the leading tone also does that (half-step below tonic), but - at least in jazz - we're used to hearing the maj7 as a sweet consonance on a tonic chord. The 4th remains the one "outside" note relative to the resolved tonic sound.

    One theory is that the 4th is the true acoustic root of the whole scale. Eg, in the C major scale, F is the natural acoustic root of everything. (This is the basis of the idea of lydian as the most stable mode.)
    But the major key actually works because we need that tension, as part of how the harmony expresses itself. Stability is not actually what we want in the key system, because we need at least a hint of restlessness and movement. We force C to be the keynote by making it the lowest note used (mostly, or at the end); we keep F higher to stop it taking over, and it becomes the useful opposition, the contrast.

  7. #6

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    2nd on what Jon R. wrote and I would add that the fourth is atendency tone whch wants to resolve down a half stem to the third of the key. Tendency tones are sung using solfege and they help our ear learn the "expected resolution" of a given note in a scale. The way I was taught it was this Re-Do, Fa-Mi, La-So, Ti-Do. So the fourth degree is a characteritic note in Ionian because in Lydian it is Sharp and because the Fourth in Ionian wants to resolve down 1/2 step to the third.

  8. #7

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    If you look at the modes of C major, all the characteristic tones are either B or F. Hmm...

  9. #8

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    C G D A E B F# c# Ab Eb Bb F

    Does this mean that lydian is the most natural of all scales?

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by whatswisdom
    C G D A E B F# c# Ab Eb Bb F

    Does this mean that lydian is the most natural of all scales?
    Exeunt, via rabbit hole: George Russell's Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by acidskiffle
    Hi,
    I'm new enough to jazz and still getting to grips with some of the harmony involved. The book which I have for college lists out all of the characteristic notes of each mode of the major scale, such as the flat 7 in mixolyidian and the the sharp 4 in lydian etc. The only characteristic is list of Ionian is the 4th. I don't understand why, I thought that it may have something to do with the fact that it's an avoid note but my lecturer told me that's not the case. He wants us to try figure it out but I'm at a loss. The book is one the Harmony 1 Berklee workbook. Any help would be great.
    Thanks.
    I think that you have to think of "two different worlds". The first one is the modal world and the other one is the diatonic world. While playing in a modal environment the 4th of Ionian mode is the characteristic note. This means that you can accent this note in your solos. Just think of Indian music or make a C drown backing track. Over a C bass you can practice your modal improvisation.
    In a diatonic environment, something is changing. The 4th (F) clashes horribly with the 3rd (E) of the Major chord (b9 interval). Apart from this, if you analyze a bit the V-I cadence, you can conclude that F is the b7 of G7. So, when you are playing the F note over C you are not spelling out the resolution. It sounds more like you playing over G7.
    The term avoid note can create misconceptions. This doesn’t mean that you cannot play F over C. It will be hard for your ears to stress F over C. Most of the times you can use it as passing tone or just try to resolve the tension created by the 4th.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by whatswisdom
    C G D A E B F# c# Ab Eb Bb F

    Does this mean that lydian is the most natural of all scales?
    In a word, no.

    In some more words...

    It depends what you mean by "natural", or how "natural" you want music to be (or which aspects of it you want to be natural).

    We currently work with equal temperament, at least on pianos and other instruments not subject to player intonation while playing (guitar is, to some extent). ET is not "natural" in any respect. It's a compromise to make all keys equivalent.
    If we accept that simple frequency ratios are what produce consonant intervals (and they seem to), then the most pure-sounding major 3rd is 5:4, while a tempered major 3rd is 14 cents sharp of that.

    Stacking 5ths (Pythagorean 3:2 ratio) also produces an E, of course (C-G-D-A-E), but the ratio of that one is 81:64. Not very simple!
    Tempered 5ths are 2 cents flat of 3:2, so every time we stack one more we get 2 more cents away from ET. The 81:64 E is 8 cents sharp of ET, but -perhaps more significantly - 22 cents sharp of 5:4. IOW, 5:4 (relative to C) produces an E we'd feel was most "natural" sounding, as major 3rd of C.
    Many people think the 14-cent-sharp tempered E is already pushing it, and 22 cents is probably unacceptably "out of tune".

    Stacking pure 5ths until we get C lydian makes every 5th progressively 2 cents sharper than equal temperament. By the time you get to F#, it's 12 cents above a tuned (tempered) F#. More importantly (seeing as we don't regard ET as a "natural" reference ), the ratio of that F# to C is mind-bogglingly complicated (729:512 if you must know) - so not a "natural" interval at all.

    In short, there are various kind of mathematical methods by which we can tune a scale, but the way we hear music is more complicated. We may be hearing ET intervals as "close enough" to certain simple ratios, but to which ones? For most intervals there are 2 or 3 candidates for possible "ideal" ratios, depending on what factors we want to include.
    Eg, if we stick with factors of 2 and 3 (the Pythagorean system), a major 2nd (whole step) is 9:8. If we allow a factor of 5 ("5-limit", as with our nice-sounding 5:4 3rd), then we can have a major 2nd of 10:9, slightly flatter than 9:8. (If we're going to make a full scale, we'll need to use both sizes of whole step in different places.)
    Some people like to incude a factor of 7, which makes a whole load of other interval ratios possible, most of them a long way from 12-tone ET. Eg, we get an appealing tritone of 7:5, but the minor 7th of 7:4 is 33 cents flat of a tuned minor 7th (which is in between the Pythagorean 16:9 and the 5-limit 9:5)

    Hopefully you get the picture.... You want "natural"? What kind of "natural", exactly?

    The fact is, in our culture, I suspect (if you did the experiment) you'd find most people would regard our tempered major scale (do re mi...) as the most "natural-sounding" scale, against which lydian would sound "odd".
    Of course, it's not natural at all, but we are used to it, that's the point. We're acclimatised to it, so it's become natural. As "natural" as our mother tongue (which is of course even less natural).

    The jazz concept of lydian being "natural" (or a suitable new standard) is based on the fact that a #11 sounds more consonant on a tonic major chord than the perfect 11 does. IOW, lydian is the most stable mode, because every note in the scale can sit on the tonic chord without sounding wrong (too tense or dissonant).
    But then it depends whether you want your music to be "stable" . The major-minor key system works fine with its inbuilt instability; ie, we're used to its tricks, its ins and outs.
    The LCC (mentioned sardonically above) was really a kind of manifesto for a new way of making music (or if it wasn't, it should have been). I don't subscribe myself, because I still quite like the old way(s). (And I don't just mean traditional keys, but the various pseudo-"modal" experiments of jazz and rock, and similar sounds in blues and folk.)
    Russell was supposed to have inspired the modal jazz revolution, but IMO there is no close allegiance to his principles evident in most of the modal players (Coltrane possibly excepted), and you certainly don't need his theories to understand modal jazz.

  14. #13

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    I consider Dorian the most stable major mode, more stable than Lydian. So there!

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
    I consider Dorian the most stable major mode, more stable than Lydian. So there!
    I think I might agree.
    Let's write the "Dorian Chromatic Concept". I quite like the idea of being the author of a spurious theory everyone can rip to shreds!

    (Having said that, the "Locrian Chromatic Concept" has a more perverse appeal... )

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonR
    I think I might agree.
    Let's write the "Dorian Chromatic Concept". I quite like the idea of being the author of a spurious theory everyone can rip to shreds!

    (Having said that, the "Locrian Chromatic Concept" has a more perverse appeal... )
    Or form a death metal group that shreds exclusively in Super Locrian.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by acidskiffle
    Hi,
    I'm new enough to jazz and still getting to grips with some of the harmony involved. The book which I have for college lists out all of the characteristic notes of each mode of the major scale, such as the flat 7 in mixolyidian and the the sharp 4 in lydian etc. The only characteristic is list of Ionian is the 4th. I don't understand why, I thought that it may have something to do with the fact that it's an avoid note but my lecturer told me that's not the case. He wants us to try figure it out but I'm at a loss. The book is one the Harmony 1 Berklee workbook. Any help would be great.
    Thanks.
    If I want to understand a mode and its uniqueness, I'll write the mode out in tertiary or cycle 3. In order of briteness. Dorian becomes the center of the briteness heirarchy, or is it brightness?

    C E G B D F# A = 1 3 5 7 9 #11 13 - Lydian
    C E G B D F A = 1 3 5 7 9 11 13 - Ionian
    C E G Bb D F A = 1 3 5 b7 9 11 13 - Mixolydian
    C Eb G Bb D F A = 1 b3 5 b7 9 11 13 - Dorian
    C Eb G Bb D F Ab = 1 b3 5 b7 9 11 b13 - Aeolian
    C Eb G Bb Db F Ab = 1 b3 5 b7 b9 11 b13 - Phrygian
    C Eb Gb Bb Db F Ab = 1 b3 b5 b7 b9 11 b13 - Locrian

    Putting this stuff in 3rds help me see effect or characteristics pretty quickly.
    I do this for melodic minor and harmonic minor as well.

    I think it's interesting that the F (the underworld tone) is the one constant in the heirarchy above.
    Last edited by ASATcat; 12-14-2012 at 05:17 PM.

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by JonR
    I think I might agree.
    Let's write the "Dorian Chromatic Concept". I quite like the idea of being the author of a spurious theory everyone can rip to shreds!

    (Having said that, the "Locrian Chromatic Concept" has a more perverse appeal... )
    Dorian is in the middle of brightness of the modes.
    Lydian and Locrian are outer extremes.
    Speaking of the major scale =)

    I often like and prefer the sound of Cmaj7#11 replacing Cmaj7 as a Imaj7 chord.
    That chord is also prefered with quartal harmony I believe.
    The Locrian sound works best for me as a replacement of the V7 chord making a basic V9 chord.

    Other characteristics I see is ii, iivb5, and IV can all function as a basic V7 chord
    iii and VI both function as a Imaj7 chord. I use the word "can" because you can but don't have to use it. No biggie rule wize =D
    Last edited by ASATcat; 12-14-2012 at 05:34 PM.

  19. #18

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    @ JonR: Man, all that cents talk makes me want to go back to playing the blues bending all the strings and not letting any frequency go untouched.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by jster
    @ JonR: Man, all that cents talk makes me want to go back to playing the blues bending all the strings and not letting any frequency go untouched.
    All that stuff Jon is talking does make total sense and cents.
    And most of us that wiggle strings hit those juicy tones.
    But ratios and all are just names, we donMt think about that stuff when we play
    I mean reall play.

  21. #20

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    I play on a nylon string guitar and never bend notes. Not sure one really can do it. I feel like I am going to break a string, the neck or my finger just trying to go up a half-step. I don't play electric guitar anymore.

  22. #21

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    Yea, nylon strings and bends are not a happy marriage

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by acidskiffle
    Hi,
    The book is one the Harmony 1 Berklee workbook. Any help would be great.
    Thanks.
    Hello acidskiffle. Sorry to resurrect this thread. Can you give the exact reference for the book you mention? I can't find it based on the information you provided. Thanks.

  24. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by pinbridge
    Hello acidskiffle. Sorry to resurrect this thread. Can you give the exact reference for the book you mention? I can't find it based on the information you provided. Thanks.
    Doubt he's still on the forum. Long time ago. Sounds like a school text. It may not be available generally.

  25. #24
    Check out this old thread:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ty123
    Hey guys,
    was hoping some of you guys can fill me in on some info about using methods of constructing voicings for chords that establish a specific mode with its characteristic pitch. E.g chords like maj7#11 for lydian.
    I'm aware of quartal harmony and the use of 4th intervals to disguise tri tone resolution to get a modal sound etc. but I'm interested to find out other ways to use chords and find cadence chords that stay within one mode so that I can create interesting lines/ tension and release resolutions whilst comping instead of just staying on one chord.
    Thanks for your interest and any help will be appreciated!!
    Also, in Google searches etc., check out the term "characteristic pitch" (in quotes) as well.

  26. #25

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    Hi Matt. Thanks for chiming in. I gathered it might be one of the Berklee Press publications but the title may not be quite right or complete. Or I'm just not looking it up properly!