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Okay. I'm back to these pentatonics. Last time I started looking at them, I lost attention span and went to something else in distraction. Using them as rootless melodic minor/altered is the eventual goal , but I have found that, for purposes of learning them in the first place, they are much easier to learn/hear/see as straight dominant pentatonics, kind of the way Goldenwave was talking about I guess. Basically they can be viewed as five-note ninth Arpeggios.
Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
Anyway, thinking about them in this way I was able to get three positions under my fingers in the first day or so , as they line up pretty well with arpeggios you probably already know. Started with the shape which is labeled D7 alt on the first row. Of course I'm looking at it as 9th chord, C form , with the root on the fifth string in the spot labeled "b13" on that grid.
They're pretty big part to really being able to see what Reg is playing in his videos. He always said that you basically can't hear or play that which you have never played , and I find it to be very true. Knowing all of his positions of melodic minor makes his videos much easier for me to watch and understand. I think learning these patterns should fill out a big gap as well.
Anyway is anyone else looked at these?
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04-26-2017 10:15 AM
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Yeah. Look forward to digging into these more . Regular pentatonics can be just so meh. Of course that's probably just from me not being able to use them very well. But dominant ninth arpeggios? These are very refreshing. cool basic stuff with virtually limitless application in other ways later. Already using some with MM, but the Dom 9th thing is really cool in and of itself. Originally Posted by fuzzthebee
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very cool. Originally Posted by fuzzthebee
I've got a couple of them pretty well, and the other three just kind of basically underway. The one which starts from the 7th of our would-be 9th chord (G form) is a beast IMO. Anyway, one cool thing I found with these is that, besides being pretty easy to get under the fingers, I find that if I do make a mistake, it's mostly playing the sixth instead of the seventh (traditional pentatonics) which basically works anyway.
My favorite is definitely the A-form. Really funky and different from anything in the traditional pentatonic. Really LOOKS like a 9th chord visually, easy to play, and ends up being fast pretty quickly.
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Howdy,
A very basic question, which may have been covered, but I couldn't find where: what are the fingerings for the basic pentatonic shapes based on Reg's system? For instance, the first minor pent position we are all familiar with. In the Reg system the second finger covers the root, e.g. G, on the 6th string for the first position. Next note up, Bb, would on the 5th string. In second position, G would be played with a 1st-finger stretch on string 6, Bb with the third finger (rather than normally the fourth) on string 6. What I'm getting at is, adhering strictly to the system's "rules" of fingering, the familiar 1st position "box pattern" where the 1st finger covers the G, and the 4th finger covers the Bb, is no longer possible.
I love the idea of a basic grid of Maj and MM to derive all other shapes, and have worked things out successfully for those two scales and covered most arpeggios. If possible I'd like not to make an exception for those pentatonic patterns. I don't mind changing them from the well-known patterns (e.g., for the first position, 1st finger covers the G, and the 4th finger covers the Bb). How did you guys go about it?
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Your G pentatonic is minor, Reg's fingerings are Major.
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Sure, but both Maj and MM fingerings are based on the middle finger as the root and there's just a one note difference between the two, the minor third. They are very similar.
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Not sure I ever heard him address this. He has a pretty different way of organizing things. Uses that second finger reference for four inversions of all those arpeggio's for example. Four, because there are four inversions, as opposed to focusing on learning all 7 positions (at least at first). Originally Posted by m_d
Well, for pentatonic there are five reference points basically . I don't know what his "reference" for that is , but his fingerings for altered pentatonic's are available towards the end of this thread . And they're not necessarily all based on the second finger etc. They're more practical fingerings. Of course they're mostly 7-position reference fingerings, minus 2 positions (because it's pentatonic- 5 instead of 2).Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 07-14-2017 at 06:07 AM.
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Anyway, if you analyze it, Reg's fingerings have no awkward conflicts with translating to regular pentatonics in 3 positions: Ionian, Mixolydian, and Aeolian. You only need 2 more for pentatonic 5, right?
Based on his fingerings for altered pentatonics - with priority toward practicality and speed/efficiency - I'd assume he uses pentatonic first finger reference for the phrygian one (essentially borrowing the Lydian fingering for that - like you do in CAGED).
That leaves only the Dorian-equivalent. I'd assume it's a 1st finger reference with 1 stretch but don't really know what he'd say. Pure speculation. I respect Reg as much as anyone in this world. Musically, he's a huge influence on me, especially re. the PROCESS of really organizing things, from broad organisational concepts like form and harmony - to the more mundane considerations like fingerings.
Anyway, I respect him too much to think that I could ever speak for him, but he hasn't been here for a good while. I'd love it if he shared his perspective on this as well.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 07-14-2017 at 06:12 AM.
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By the way, in both of my previous posts, I'm assuming a relative minor organization - G major fingerings for E minor pent. That's his reference point for NATURAL minor, and pentatonic may as well be for practical purposes. Originally Posted by m_d
Just wanted to be clear, as it sounds like you're looking at it from PARALLEL minor in this post - like melodic minor reference. I think the fingerings become much more difficult and awkward in that context.
For simplicity, think of using G MAJOR pentatonics, based on Reg's G major diatonic, and you'll see that it lays out better and makes more sense.
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matt.guitar.teacher, thanks for your helpful replies, they make a lot of good sense.
2 things I will do, then:
- check out the altered pentatonic references, and see the layout compared to Maj and MM; maybe infer the layout for basic pents from there if possible.
- simply change the reference point as you suggest in #316.
Although I've hardly participated in this thread - I discovered it only a few months ago - it's had a big impact on me too. Reg's approach is brilliant and has the ring of truth. The stuff he touches upon is both very fundamental and sorely missing in a lot of guitar instruction.
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Hey reg , I wondered if you might touch on how you approached vocabulary development/acquisition when you were teaching. I've been working on some of the harmonic stuff, but the vocabulary part is more traditional approaches etc. Would be interested. Thanks. Originally Posted by Reg
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Hey Matt... I approach vocabulary just as I approach music... I use existing vocabulary and expand possible understandings and usage.
Diatonic... has very standard definition... we generally use term as a noun, right. a fixed collection of notes etc... So if you expand on the term and use as an adjective , the term becomes organizational.
Rather than a fixed collection of pitches, diatonic becomes a method of organization for creating the collection of pitches... with the possibility of changing the standard guidelines of relationships between notes and which notes control those relationships.
So you end up with different musical usage of word diatonic. I always just use.... The Reference.... then create Relationships and then the Developments of those Relationships based on the Reference.
Much of the difficulty of teaching etc... is from most students not really understanding basic musical language. Of course all personal opinions etc... and no one on this forum. Would be glad to dig in etc...
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Somebody said something about writing about music being like dancing about architecture.
I have trouble following Reg's vocabulary and description of concepts, except when he gives concrete musical examples, meaning chord names and note names. When he does that, I think I'm able to understand.
At that point I try to translate his language into the language I already know. Where I end up is with my term "chord substitution".
So, yes, you start with the changes to the tune. And, you have some kind of approach to it, say focusing on the basic tonal centers.
An aside, Reg's comment about every single melody note reflecting a chord is important and is exactly how Chuck Wayne did it. He'd make a chord melody with a chord for every note, and then try to improvise on all of those chords.
After that, it's chord substitution and Reg is clear on how he does that, I think. So, it's "modal interchange" meaning things like raising the 4th against a major chord. (Ionian becomes lydian). iim and V7 give many more options with different minor scales and tritone subs. Reg makes the point that it is better to think about the 7 models of melodic minor as different chords rather than as simply the scale as a whole. At least, I think that's what he meant. Doing it his way may allow for more structured lines. For example, you could play a lydian scale, or you could play major triads a step apart. Same notes, but playing the two triads may make the line seem less random.
Reg also uses tritone subs. And, I guess, other ways of generating chord substitutions, but those are the ones I grasped.
He wrote about using harmonic rhythm (the rhythm and when the chords change), but I'm not clear on exactly how he does that. I've always done it by ear.
The thing I have found novel (although maybe most players already worked this way) is to extract pentatonics from the various scales. I like the sound. It's unclear to me how to learn them. I've never been good at memorizing geometric patterns - and there are so many! I'm going to try to figure out some other way.
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Yea... I'm opening up this thread again, want to work on more advanced techniques, concepts and approaches for performing and the understanding of what that is. Theory... right. I don't know everything.... but I've been around and and can play, have thick skin and am not looking to make $ or promote ME... which is a big part about playing jazz...it's about the music and the performance of.
We all don't have extra time ... so I'll try and deal with basics and technique issues in my Basics and on to the speed of Jazz in the "getting started " section....
I am going to try and be more of a moderator.... self appointed. Can't get fired from gig...
Please ask or get into whatever's up and I'll post some of my views and we can get into it.
Reg
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Hey, Reg,
One of your terms that's eluded me until recently is "developing relationships." You defined this as (I'm paraphrasing from memory so please correct me if I've misunderstood) putting a melodic figure in different harmonic contexts.
I would love to see/hear some examples of this. If you don't have time, or don't want to get into a detailed explanation or make a video, I'd be grateful if you could just mention a couple of players you think do this especially well, or (even better) in an especially clear, accessible way.
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Reg, something I've been toying with...
So obviously, we want to get away from chasing changes when soloing and play to targets and such...
So my question is, if you find yourself playing with a bass player you trust, do you find yourself approaching comping more like this too?
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Hey Mr B... even when I don't know the bass player .... It doesn't take that many bars or maybe a tune to hear how a player plays harmonically ... on any instrument.
I'm still chasing, well I really don't chase changes anymore, even when I don't know a tune... I recognize and can hear Chord Patterns and what they imply... which defines the Function which is basically a Harmonic Map.
But Yes... almost all tunes are about Targets and connections., harmonically and melodically... everything etc...
Hey Joe... developing relationships... is more about... after you create a relationship... So you have reference, say your playing a latin Blues in F... So usually the basic changes.... F7... Bb7 and what ever turnaround your using... The related II- is usually added to the 7th chords...
C-7 F7... F-7 Bb7... ( or F7sus F7 etc...)... so that would be creating a relationship... Adding the related II- to the Dominant chords.
Developing that relationship would be what I choose to do with that Relationship.
1)I could create typical II V melodic ideas and develop them....
2) I could make the dominant chords Lydian b7 so I would have Bb Dorian and F7 #11 open the MM door
3) open the Blue Note Door
4) play off the implied target of a II V... C-7 F7 to Eb
hope that helps
RegLast edited by Reg; 03-28-2018 at 08:58 AM.
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Hi Reg, Originally Posted by Reg
Thanks for that. It's helpful. I'll mess around with it and see if anything clicks.
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should that be C-7 F7... F-7 Bb7? Originally Posted by Reg
Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 03-28-2018 at 08:49 AM.
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I would like to open the blue note door. :-) What does that look like? Originally Posted by Reg
Btw. I've been doing more lately with playing off of the related dom7#11 of minor chords, the way you talked about in another thread a while back, and those have proven to be really good for opening up the ears to strong-weak pattern possibilities etc. adds a whole new layer, even just rhythmically.
A tipping point for me was learning how to work on those extended diatonic related chords , using those one octave arpeggios licks of yours. I honestly feel like those are fundamental to really starting to hear/see things the way you're talking about. Thanks again.
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Hey Matt, yes the related II- C-7, not Bb- Thanks, at least someone is on it.
So Blue note door on a blues... Well I almost always use harmony, chords to frame a Blue note. Meaning I add a chord or chord pattern to organize where and why I'm using a Blue note...
So If we're playing a blues already... we have b7 already covered. Although I could still change the reference b7 if I choose you... Anyway ...
Think like your playing a chord solo... with no embellishments, all lead or melody notes need to have a Chord... voiced below. This is not how one usually plays... but an exercise to force you to make complete choices as to what those chords could be...
Now try and use MM as source for as many blue notes as you can.... and then expand what the blue notes actually are....
Were playing a Blues in F.... You can use V's and sub V's , then add the related II-'s... then other chord patterns. I think and hear Functional Targets.... Tonic, subdominant and Dominant, so personally, there are always lots of Chord options. Parkers Blues for Alice ... chord pattern for approaching the IV chord etc... but not vanilla, right. Try and use the changes to frame Blue notes and have the changes be from MM as much as possible. Anyway... you'll find some pretty common practice usages. And you'll find some notes that also become Blue like.
Personally Blue Notes are notes that are not diatonic or are not a chord tone to basic reference chord.... but create a relationship that we call Blue notes.... So I just expand that type of relationship. It's not really that complicated....
Anyway... play with it a little. I'll post what I hear later, examples.
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Hi All im noob here. Good post! Love your stories!
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Reg- as a writer I notice your Substitutions go beyond the common subs and I like how you go in layers , it enables turning a simple two chord Vamp into an entire Tune and it might also tie Keys together in different ways .
Have you ever listed them in a circle with original chord in the center then subs first circle then subs of subs ...second circle ...then - whatever third circle is .?
Or even in text outline form
One for Minor
One for Major including the flat5s etc ?
Or have you done this already somewhere ?
Thanks.
Also on your Latin Blues example : on the step of
'Converting to Lydian Dominant '-
are you referring to actually changing the Voicings to Dom7b5 or merely the improv scale choice option ?
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Hey Robert...
Yes I probably have posted examples.... I generally think and hear with reference to Function.... T SD D... simple perceptions of movement or sustain.
But Layers can work....
I generally work with Chord Patterns. existing series of chords used in Jazz Tunes. II V's ,I VI II V, I bVI II V's, I IVs, I V's, I bVII's basically any series or chords that already has a sound , a feel and generally imply a Target... that can become and function like One Chord. We could put together a Guide with examples if you would like....
And yes many times when I cover latin blues, I Modal interchange to Dom7#11, there are a number of methods to arrive with the Dom7#11... for me personally I usually come from the implied II- chord of any V7 chord, and modal interchange the II- to mm etc....
Almost all latin music has montuno implications.... It's kind of the same thing with jazz harmony, but latin vamps stay locked in harmonically.
A-7 to D7... Dorian with access to mm... F#
A-7 to E7... or A-7, D-7, E7(b9)
generally F or natural minor and HM with traditional implication.
And subs, extended subs, chord patterns, line cliches, montuno.... all need to have implied reference.
It isn't that deep or complicated.... we can get into it... There is another member, Matt who has been working on some of these concepts, sometimes I think matt expresses my understandings better than I do.... anyway, I'm around for a while again, and will post as much as I can.
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Glad to hear you're going to be around.
If I could make a request, something I've never seen you do in a video or anything is basically laying out your lead line chord voicings for a given chord or set of chords in a key etc. I've picked up bits here and there , but I really like the way you laid it out earlier in this thread for single chords:
You've probably done more diatonic this way in threads. (I can link to your vanilla diatonic dominant voicings posted earlier , when I get a chance). But I would also be interested in some of your go- to melodic minor melodic voicings with extensions, as well as basic major and minor etc. Originally Posted by Reg
Anyway, I think you're melodic minor applications are probably more difficult for people to "see". I know that it was much harder for me until I learned to PLAY some of it. I think if you laid out some of your pet voicings for melodic minor, it would give a context for then showing folks how to apply it in context.
Personally, I mostly work out of my m7-b5 Drop-2 voicings and a few reg moves I've picked up. I definitely need to branch out a bit.
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