What point should you start learning Chromatic Concepts?

[bobsguitars09]

People generally start out learning music theory by using the major scales and building chords and arpeggios and all of that. memorizing the notes, chords and functions.

At what point should you start using the chromatic scale to learn everything? seems to me it would make sense to start with the chromatic scale from the beginning. That way you are already aware of b9's #11's and all of that. Not any more complicated than a major 7 chord...

Do you disagree with using the chromatic scale right away to learn all these concepts? if so. why?

are there any teaching methods in existence that start you right off with chromatic (do di re ri mi fa fi sol si la li ti) concepts instead of do re mi fa sol la ti do?

[strumcat]

First of all, I'm speaking from complete ignorance of music theory, and welcome any corrections or explanations of why I'm wrong about the following.

Bobsguitar, I've often wondered why music is taught using the major scale as the reference point instead of the chromatic scale. Take notation, for example. If you used a six-line staff with every increment representing a half-step, and used numbers to indicate other octaves, if necessary, you would have every possible note represented. This would eliminate the need for sharps and flats, key signatures. And why learn so many scales, since they're all subsets of the chromatic scale? To my mind, simplification and clarification without the loss of functionality is always a good thing.

But again, I admit that I don't really know what I'm talking about and am open to being set straight.

[AmundLauritzen]

Well it might be too much to take in and doesn't help much in hearing the tonal center. I think that once the inside sounds are in ones ear, it will be much easier to hear the outside sounds and how to resolve them because when you know all the inside notes, you'll hear where each chromatic tension wants to "pull" towards. I'd say learn the diatonic sounds, then the traditional alterations(#11 on major chords, #7 on minor, the four alterations of a dom7th), and then you can start playing around with unconventional notes on chord(b3 on a maj chord, major 3rd on a minor chord, #7 on a domth etcetra).

This is just my personal opinion and what works for me.

[bobsguitars09]

very interesting

Lines a Whole Step Apart, 6 Lines per Octave | Music Notations | The Music Notation Project

[bobsguitars09]

Directory of Music Notation Proposals | Publications | MNMA 1985-2007 | The Music Notation Project

[fep]

What point should you start learning Chromatic Concepts?

Certainly not before you can sit down in front of people and play at least 20 jazz standards (without the sheet music), chords, melody & improve.

You post a lot of questions but I've never seen you post a mp3 or video of you playing. imo, That's what you should do next. Why not join in with with the Practical Standards Study Group threads?

Or perhaps I'm off base and you do already have a large repertoire?

[Stevebol]

Originally Posted by bobsguitars09

People generally start out learning music theory by using the major scales and building chords and arpeggios and all of that. memorizing the notes, chords and functions.

At what point should you start using the chromatic scale to learn everything? seems to me it would make sense to start with the chromatic scale from the beginning. That way you are already aware of b9's #11's and all of that. Not any more complicated than a major 7 chord...

Do you disagree with using the chromatic scale right away to learn all these concepts? if so. why?

are there any teaching methods in existence that start you right off with chromatic (do di re ri mi fa fi sol si la li ti) concepts instead of do re mi fa sol la ti do?

There's no reason to wait on learning other scales. Learning the major scale in several positions is the big one but it's good to start in on chromatic, diminished, half diminished, whole-tone and to a lesser extent-modes, right away.
I can't come up with a reason why you should do the other scales right away but you're going to hear many of these scales in fragments in a typical solo so why wait? I think of chromatic, dim, half-dim and whole-tone as being the linear division of an octave. This results in a certain kind of dissonance. Combined with the major and a few different minor scales it will give you a pretty complete arsennal.

[bako]

One should learn to play the chromatic scale early on. By all means experiment creating music from the chromatic scale. Have fun.

As you add notes to a collection, the number of possible relationships multiply exponentially and can get complex very fast.
12 notes contain the entire history of tempered scale music. One idea that I learned from George Russell is finding a path to a fully chromatic concept is through the study of smaller collections of notes that together contain all the intervals of the chromatic scale.

My feeling as a teacher is to teach the larger concept because this stuff in truth is not all that hard.
However, from there I build from simplicity, gradually increasing in complexity.

To play creatively, we need to have some measure of control over the materials we are working with.
Lately I have been making it a point to play some easy music every day because I feel very free to stretch myself further.
Somehow this relaxation and feeling of expansiveness translates over to other music playing.

Regarding your posts, I have some questions similar to Fep. I observe that you ask many broad questions and sometimes your following round of questions don't indicate at what level you have absorbed much of the info and opinions that have been shared.
What do you feel are your next best steps to build the foundation needed to successfully approach the level of conceptual complexity you seem drawn to? Best, Bako

[JonR]

Originally Posted by strumcat

First of all, I'm speaking from complete ignorance of music theory, and welcome any corrections or explanations of why I'm wrong about the following.

Bobsguitar, I've often wondered why music is taught using the major scale as the reference point instead of the chromatic scale. Take notation, for example. If you used a six-line staff with every increment representing a half-step, and used numbers to indicate other octaves, if necessary, you would have every possible note represented. This would eliminate the need for sharps and flats, key signatures. And why learn so many scales, since they're all subsets of the chromatic scale? To my mind, simplification and clarification without the loss of functionality is always a good thing.

But again, I admit that I don't really know what I'm talking about and am open to being set straight.

The reason for starting with the major scale is that that "old do-re-mi" has been the basis of all western music for several centuries. It's in our blood, almost. It's the foundation of it all.
If we had all grown up with 12-tone serialism or atonality, then it would make sense to start with the chromatic scale; but we haven't. (Schoenberg at al never caught on with more than a very select minority of educated tastes.)

It's also a false logic to appeal to the 12 equal divisions of the octave. 12-tone equal temperament (12-tet) is an artificial tuning system invented - not very long ago - to enable free modulation between all 12 keys without retuning. The "true" 7-note key scale does not consist of whole steps exactly equal to two half-steps.
The sound of a scale being "in tune" depends not on equal divisions of an octave (an arithmetical relationship) but on simple ratios between the frequencies of its notes (a geometric or logarithmic relationship). Eg, a perfect 5th is 3:2 of the tonic. (Eg, if A is 220 Hz - a vibration of 220 cycles per second - then E would be 330.) A "perfect" major 3rd is 5:4 of the tonic (for an A of 220, that's a C# of 275.) A "perfect" major 6th is 5:3; a perfect 4th is 4:3.
It so happens that when we calculate a whole 7-note scale that way, we end up with steps that roughly resemble whole and half-steps, even though a whole step is not exactly twice a half-step (and there are two sizes of whole step).
However, if a scale was tuned that way, then only one key (A major in this case) would be in tune. To make all keys sound equally in tune (or rather equally out of tune, but not too much) we have to "temper" the scale. We have to fix it so that there's only one size of whole step, and it must be exactly twice a half-step. This means only one ratio matters, which is that of one half-step to the next; which is the 12th root of 2 (far from a simple number!). It means all the notes in the scale are shifted a little one way or the other. Instead of E being 330, it has to be 329.6; instead of C# being 275, it has to be 277. Etc.

Of course, we are now used to hearing music played with these "out of tune" notes (at least if we listen to pianos). But the idea of the major scale is still paramount. The tempered major scale is close enough to its "pure" ancestor to pass.

And notation reflects that. It reflects the historical origins of western music in a 7-note scale (ABCDEFG) with no sharps or flats. Again, this is something ingrained in our consciousness - in our ears, not just in theory books.

Although other musical cultures have different tuning systems, most share the idea of an unequal division of the octave - simply because most humans agree music sounds better that way. (Eg, although Indian music recognises 22 divisions of the octave, they still play with 7-note raga scales very similar to our western modes.)

If a scale consisted of 6 equal whole-steps, or 12 equal half-steps, then every note would sound the same: there would be no key note, no tonal centre "home note", no hierarchy; no easy way of producing meaning melodically. (Schoenberg had to invent a complex new system of writing melodies to produce something meaningful out of 12-tone music; and many would say he still failed.)

[Nuff Said]

Originally Posted by bobsguitars09

At what point should you start using the chromatic scale to learn everything?

I find that hearing how chromatics are used in improvised phrases and to link to other phrases is difficult. A lot of concentrated listening is required, I've still got a long way to go.

Nuff

[strumcat]

Originally Posted by JonR

[1] The reason for starting with the major scale is that that "old do-re-mi" has been the basis of all western music for several centuries...

[2] It's also a false logic to appeal to the 12 equal divisions of the octave. 12-tone equal temperament (12-tet) is an artificial tuning system invented - not very long ago - to enable free modulation between all 12 keys without retuning...

[3] If a scale consisted of 6 equal whole-steps, or 12 equal half-steps, then every note would sound the same: there would be no key note, no tonal centre "home note", no hierarchy; no easy way of producing meaning melodically....

[1] Well, I can't argue with that. Also fits in with waht several others said about simplifying things at first. But dissonance can really be quite beautiful. Chopin's music is full of incredibly beautiful dissonances and unusual sequences of notes that just sound "right" in spite of it. Maybe an emphasis on the chromatic scale would lead to more exploration and discovery of beautiful unusual combinations and sequences beyond the more familiar ones?

[2] I've heard a little about 12-tone system's bad temper and defects. However, guitarists and keyboard players simply have to live with it, and it's become the basis for how I think about music. Your explanation really is informative and interesting, and something I should probably learn more about. I suspect that a lot of my confusion stems from twelve-tone reasoning.

[3] Hm... I don't understand why any note couldn't still be a root note or tonal center of a chromatic scale, and the various more familiar intervals still have the same feel or impact. The venerable major scale and friends would still exist unscathed within it. They would just have a lot more company. Tension and resolution wouldn't necessarily have to be crowded out. It could get more complex, but still stay as simple as ever, if desired.

A chromatic system of thinking and notation just seems more organized, simple, and clear. It would be like changing the names of the mathematical integers from something like one, three minus one, three, five minus one, five, six... to one, two, three, four, five, six... Wouldn't that facilitate a simpler, clearer, and more organized approach to music?

Well, I guess I still have the rookie luxury of being delighted by all the possibilities inherent in my probable misunderstanding of things. As I go along I will try to correct that.

Thanks to everybody who replied and helped clarify and explain this, especially AmundLauritzen, who also gave some excellent reasons why one would want to start with the major scale.

[Lori55]

This is just my personal opinion and what works for me.

[brwnhornet59]

I say learn to use chromaticism by adding interest to what you have learned about the harmonized Major scale and its structures. Invoking a full 12 tone system is not exactly the best place to start, though being familiar with it and internalizing it as you go, will lead to a much greater understanding of everything you are approaching.

Play arps in upper extensions and use chromatic/diatonic lines in tandem, as approach notes to your target areas. Learn idiomatic sequences and incorporate Chromatic lines into them.

Learn to do this with MM and h/w as well. You want to sound musical, not mechanical.

Learn to play outside and then resolve. The more you try and experiment, the clearer their usage will become to you.

Just my two cents.

[RyanM]

The chromatic scale isn't the 'parent scale' that others are derived from.

The major scale is the basis of western harmony, and the chromatic scale is derived from that...almost as a byproduct of being able to play in different keys. This is why the piano keyboard is laid out with 7 notes, with 7 letter names. The chromatic notes are 'alterations' of the others, to allow for other 7-note scales to be tuned the same way.

Check out a book, such as Temperament, for the history of tuning/temperament in western harmony.
"Equal Temperament" is the keyphrase you want to google.

A 'Chromatic' (atonal?) method isn't necessary. Our ears are trained to hear tonality. Classical harmony and counterpoint explains a lot, once you get in deep, beyond the rudimentary stuff. Even for jazz. Actually I think any jazz theory (CST, etc.) works best as a supplement.

With a good harmony/counterpoint method you'll get to the chromatic stuff eventually, once you have the foundation. In other words, classical harmony "is" a chromatic method. It all starts with V to I and expands from there.

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by JonR

The reason for starting with the major scale is that that "old do-re-mi" has been the basis of all western music for several centuries ...

Yes, and the extensions that the OP mentions are all altered/adjusted relative to the major scale.

C major:
C D E F G A B C
 
C major in thirds:
C   E   G   B   D   F   A  
1   3   5   7   9  11  13
 

Now it's easy to see that, relative to a C chord, if I say flat-5, I mean Gb. And #11, F#. Flat 13? Ab.

The major scale is our basis, as JonR notes.