Play in the key of F to get C Mixolydian?

[bobsguitars09]

I think I'm onto "something" here. If I want to play a blues in C. Can I just play all the notes in F Major to get the sound of C Mixolydian? The major 1 chord is now a 7? but then again if I want my 1 4 5 chords to be all 7 chords then I would still need to flat the 7 on the four chord right? am I onto something? or?

[coolvinny]

The notes of the F ionian scale do indeed equal the notes of the C Mixolydian scale. I suppose you have those notes to draw from so in that sense you are onto something....

However, I do not think you are onto anything useful here. The only difference between a mixolydian and ionian scale is the flat 7. I think it's a lot easier to just think of C mixolydian as a major scale with a flatted 7 rather than the way you are proposing.

Someone better than me please help explain this better (or set me straight)...I am very tired.

[AlohaJoe]

There are a zillion ways to process this stuff and I think your discovery has value as it does begin to open the door to a bigger picture. We all process differently, with the goal of expanding our choices.

So in C, playing F(4) scale tones over the C(1) = C Mixolydian. When you get to the F, you can play Bb (the 4 of F) scale tones to hear F Mixolydian and so forth. In other words, play the 4 to hear a 5. The reverse is also true, play the 5 to hear a 4 (Lydian).

The modes of the major scale all contain the same notes, they just start and stop in different places, and in the long run you're better off just learning them. I think coolvinny's point was, once you learn and become comfortable with Mixolydian you don't have to think about math, you just play the notes that fit C7 and then F7 and so forth.

Anyway, I'm self taught so there's plenty of players here who are way ahead of me but if you start working on scales some lights will come on. I know, scales aren't the end-all but they're a great place to start. Great help here

[JonR]

Originally Posted by bobsguitars09

I think I'm onto "something" here. If I want to play a blues in C. Can I just play all the notes in F Major to get the sound of C Mixolydian? The major 1 chord is now a 7? but then again if I want my 1 4 5 chords to be all 7 chords then I would still need to flat the 7 on the four chord right? am I onto something? or?

You're right, but you're maybe half way there .
As coolvinny says, it's much better to think "C major with b7" than "F major over C". The point is you need to remember that C is the keynote, not F.

But in addition, blues is a kind of special case (depending on how authentically "bluesy" you want to sound). In a blues (in C), even when you change to the F chord (or F7), C is still keynote (tonic). You will get a more authentic blues sound if you think "C minor" (or Cm6) over the F7 chord, and not "F mixolydian" (or even "F major with b7"). If you want a full 7-note scale on the F7, think C dorian; same notes as F mixolydian, of course, but it helps you focus on the C tonic.

But then you can also just think "C blues scale" over both chords, equally authentic (maybe more so).

The other useful idea is to combine C major and C minor pentatonics. If you want modal terms, that gives you C mixolydian with added b3 (or C dorian with added M3). But it doesn't really matter what you call it; check how it fits the chord tones, and work from those. (Eg, you'd avoid the E natural on the F7 chord, and use the Eb as a passing note on the C7.)

The way I think in blues - at least from a jazz perspective - is to work from the chord tones (the 4 notes of each dom7). That's my foundation. For passing notes between chord tones, I think as follows (key of C):

C7 chord: anything from C major or minor pent, plus the blues b5 (Gb).
IOW: foundation C E G Bb; passing notes D, Eb, F, Gb, A.

F7 chord: anything from F major pent or C minor pent, plus Gb.
IOW: foundation C Eb F A; passing notes D, Gb, G, Bb.

G7 chord: anything from G major pent or C minor pent; the Gb is less likely here, but could still be made to work. And I'd probably avoid the C.
IOW: foundation G B D F; passing notes A, Bb, Eb, E, (& maybe C and F#/Gb).

IOW, I'm not thinking modes here at all, even if what I play might be describable in modal terms *. I'm beginning and ending phrases on chord tones, but with more of an emphasis on the tonic (C) than I would in other kinds of music. And of course I'm doing a fair amount of bending (D or Eb towards E on the C7; F towards Gb or G on C7 and F7; etc.).
I might also consider any other notes a half-step below chord tones - such as B on the C7 chord, G# on the F7, or C# on the G; IMO these are outside the core blues vocabulary, but can still make for interesting "jazzy" accents.

And in practice I'm not actually thinking about that many notes, in all! The blues is really a 5-note music, it's just that some of those notes can move around... (and they don't always stop on tuned pitches). I like to keep it simple, but that's only because I like blues...; it's equally possible to treat a blues sequence in other ways, more "jazzy"; by which I mean less bending, more adherence to chord tones and 7-note scales, more chromaticism - and probably more chord subs. And naturally there's all kinds of ways of combining both approaches.

* The blues is a "modal" kind of music in one sense: a primitive folk vocal scale with no chords necessary (other than a tonic). The "key" is not really either major or minor, but some kind of variable half-way region. The 3 standard chords are a kind of afterthought, grafted on by musicians with a western education, to try to enhance - or pin down - what was perceived as changes suggested by typical variations in the melodies.
When jazz gets hold of blues, it tends to remove the one-scale/one-chord primitivism, and add all kinds of more "interesting" changes - bringing it more into line with European harmonic conventions.
There's nothing "wrong" with this kind of adaptation or development - it's just good (IMO) to be aware of these different perspectives, to know how they sound, and decide how you want to treat THIS blues you happen to be working on. You want a mean, gritty sound, stripped down? or something more sophisticated? You want your blues in a sharecropper's overall, or a city suit? Or both alternately?

[Nuff Said]

Originally Posted by bobsguitars09

I think I'm onto "something" here. If I want to play a blues in C. Can I just play all the notes in F Major to get the sound of C Mixolydian? The major 1 chord is now a 7? but then again if I want my 1 4 5 chords to be all 7 chords then I would still need to flat the 7 on the four chord right? am I onto something? or?

Do you know each chord tone as you play the changes?

An important goal in Jazz is to learn how to play the chord changes. If you play your improvisation without the backing chords, does it outline each chord?

Nuff Said

[JorgeFon]

I'm in a similar place.

It would be great if you could check my understanding -

So in a Blues in A for example, you can play the Mixolydian scale of each chord (A, D, E) emphasizing the 3rd, 5th, and 7th of the scale as accents on down beats ...?

To help outline the changes you play the 3rd/ 7th of the scale on the change, for example when coming back to an A7 you could play a G or C# on the "1" ..?

[wolflen]

Originally Posted by bobsguitars09

I think I'm onto "something" here. If I want to play a blues in C. Can I just play all the notes in F Major to get the sound of C Mixolydian? The major 1 chord is now a 7? but then again if I want my 1 4 5 chords to be all 7 chords then I would still need to flat the 7 on the four chord right? am I onto something? or?

its exciting to begin to have insight on how to "break out" and use the music we hear in our head and apply it to the instrument..

for me the discovery of applying "symmetric harmony" to the blues was mind blowing...

i began to see C7 Eb7 F#7 A7 as ONE chord .. chords in minor 3rds

example for blues in C

the notes of Eb7 become extensions of the C7 chord
Eb = #9
Gb = b5
Bb =b7
Db = b9

break down the other chords and you begin to have additional material to draw from to use and you will begin to see additional ways to to extend this thinking..perhaps using a ii7 chord before the V7 (Fmi7-Eb7)...

you may begin to see/hear charlie parker thinking develope..

experiment with harmony in major 3rds - C7 E7 G#7 and you begin to hear coltrane type changes

play well

wolf

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Originally Posted by wolflen

i began to see C7 Eb7 F#7 A7 as ONE chord .. chords in minor 3rds

Indeed. Combine the notes of C7, Eb7, F#7 and A7:

C C# Eb E F# G A Bb

The diminished scale!

Or think of the back door cadence: Eb7 F -- the Eb7 is a bluesy sub for C7.

[bobsguitars09]

Just doing some work here and came up with this.

Any Maj7 Chord is the One Chord of the Key, the 3 Chord of the relative minor, the 4 Chord of the Key a 5th Above and the 6th Chord of the Key a Major 3rd Above.

Am I correct? moving on to the m7 chords now.

[bako]

That's correct but seems a bit overcomplicated for a simple observation.

Using diatonic cycles gives you the whole story

2nds-----I II III IV V VI VII I
3rds-----I III V VII II IV VI I
4ths-----I IV VII III VI II V I
5ths-----I V II VI III VII IV I
6ths-----I VI IV II VII V III I
7ths-----I VII VI V IV III II I

[monk]

In major harmony, the number of times a chord type appears tells you how many other major keys the chord is a member of.

Triadic harmony-key of C: 3 majors, 3 minors, 1 diminished
C: I in C, IV in G, V in F
Dm: ii in C, iii in Bb, vi in F
Em: iii in C, ii in D, vi in G
F: IV in C, V in Bb, I in F
G: V in C, IV in D, I in G
Am: vi in C, ii in G , iii in F
Bdim: vii in C

Diatonic Harmony-Key of C: 2 maj7s, 3 m7s, 1 dominant7, 1 m7b5
Cmaj7: I in C, IV in G
Dm7: ii in C, iii in Bb, vi in F
Em7: iii in C, ii in D, vi in G
Fmaj7: IV in C, I in F
G7: V in C
Am7: vi in C, ii in G, iii in F
Bm7b5: vii in C