what do I play over this?

[elinfoot]

Hi all,

I have a quick question.. What could you play over the progression GMaj7|A7b9|Dm7|Ab7b9 when I play it it sounds ok.I mean not particularly dissonant but what key(s) is it in. I'm asking because I put it in as part of a tune I wrote in febuary and at the time I think I was mostly playing E minor scales but I've just been having a play with the recording and I'm not sure it works. Any suggestions gratefully received.

Eric

[JonR]

Originally Posted by elinfoot

Hi all,

I have a quick question.. What could you play over the progression GMaj7|A7b9|Dm7|Ab7b9 when I play it it sounds ok.I mean not particularly dissonant but what key(s) is it in. I'm asking because I put it in as part of a tune I wrote in febuary and at the time I think I was mostly playing E minor scales but I've just been having a play with the recording and I'm not sure it works. Any suggestions gratefully received.

Eric

It's in the key of G - assuming that's a loop that goes back to Gmaj7 - but of course the other 3 chords are non-diatonic!
Functionally, A7b9 is V of Dm, and Ab7b9 is a tritone sub for D7, V of G. So you could argue it goes to D minor in the middle, but I think overall G sounds more like the main key centre. That doesn't really help you with choosing scales, however.
Chord-scale theory states that 7b9 chords take the HW dim scale, while Dm7 would probably be dorian (C major scale).
Gmaj7 - being the key chord - implies G major, but G lydian might work well, esp as it would share a C# with the next chord.

If these changes are fairly quick - 1 bar per chord or less - I'd be going for arpeggios mainly, and looking for voice-leading between the chord tones. I'd begin that by looking for various shapes for each chord as close as possible to each other. Such as:

Gmaj7 A7b9 Dm7 Ab7b9 Gmaj7 A7b9 Dm9 Ab7b9 Gmaj9 A7b9 Dm11 Ab7b9 Gmaj7
-10----9----8----8--|--7----6----5----5--|--5----3----3----2----|-2-
-7-----8----6----7--|--7----5----5----4--|--3----2----1----1----|-0-
-7-----9----7----8--|--7----6----5----5--|--4----3----2----2----|-0-
-9-----8----7----7--|--5----5----3----4--|--4----2----3----1----|-0-
--------------------|--------------------|----------------------|---
--------------------|--------------------|----------------------|---
 

etc. That plots out various bits of voice-leading, as well as shared tones, which I'd try to pick up in solo phrases. When it comes to notes in between the chord tones, I might not pay too much attention to scales, and either borrow notes from the next chord (or the one before) or just use half-steps below each chord tone. (Half-steps below the rootless 7b9 shapes shown gives you the entire diminished scale anyway.)
I'd also use half-step transitions between chord tones a whole step apart. (Eg, from F# on the Gmaj7 to E on the A7b9, I might go via F.)

More time on each chord would mean more time to explore each separate scale (because it has to be a different scale on each chord). But I'd still be thinking about chord tones/extensions, and melodic/rhythmic phrases linking the chords - because this is still a functional sequence, sounding like it's moving forward, each dom7 resolving to the next chord; so solo phrases (IMO) need to reflect that, build on it.

[backliner]

I like the progression. Kinda funky blues sounding.

I'd be tempted to play pentatonic on the first two changes and diminished on the second two.

[elinfoot]

Thanks ! That'll be something to work on this evening.

[elinfoot]

Is there anything I could do with that progression that would make it slightly easier to deal with?

[JohnW400]

Think of the Gma7 as Emi9 now you have a ii-V

[thenoviceguitarist]

Originally Posted by JohnW400

Think of the Gma7 as Emi9 now you have a ii-V

+1

Yep ii-V over the first two changes. Play your D minor stuff over the third change and then just raise the third to an F#, treating the Ab7b9 as a tritone sub for D7 on the last change.

[elinfoot]

Ok, so it's now Em9|A7b9 | Dm | Ab7b9

I could play D Major over the first 2 bars, D minor over the Dm and G major (because D7 is the V of G major) over the Ab7b9. It's the last 2 chords that are still giving me trouble . D natural minor has a Bb in it so I'd have to raise that and F up a semi tone?

[JohnW400]

following your thinking it would be D ma| Dmi | Dmi |Dbmi|.


Strictly speaking the A7b9 would be the V7 chord and you would use the harmonic minor. (likewise fro Ab, use Db harm. minor)

[JonR]

Originally Posted by elinfoot

Ok, so it's now Em9|A7b9 | Dm | Ab7b9

I could play D Major over the first 2 bars,

As JohnW400 says, Em9 means D major (or possibly G major), but A7b9 has a Bb in it - which D major doesn't. The only scales that will fit A7b9 are D harmonic minor, or A HW diminished. (In fact, D harmonic major will fit A7b9, but that's a very rare scale.)

Just to clarify the advice in the above posts, you should be aware of the two basic types of ii-V: major and minor.

Em7(9)-A7(9) = ii-V in D major. Usually followed by Dmaj7 or D6.
Em7b5-A7b9 = ii-V in D minor. Usually followed by Dm (Dm6 or Dm(maj7)).

It is possible for either pair to lead the other way (Em7-A9 could lead to Dm, Em7b5-A7b9 could lead to Dmaj7) - but it's rare to mix a ii chord from one key with a V chord from the other key. So don't often see Em9-A7b9, nor do you see Em7b5-A9.

In terms of scales, D harmonic minor would fit Em7b5, A7b9 and Dm - although it's not the conventional chord-scale-theory choice. You don't need to worry about what the normal choices are, but you do need to understand what notes are in each chord, and to include ALL those notes in any scale choice.

Originally Posted by elinfoot

D minor over the Dm and G major (because D7 is the V of G major) over the Ab7b9. It's the last 2 chords that are still giving me trouble . D natural minor has a Bb in it so I'd have to raise that and F up a semi tone?

Hold on. First of all, G major is not going to fit Ab7b9. It may be a sub for D7, but for an altered D7.
Secondly, yes you'd have to raise Bb and F (from D minor scale) up a semitone - but you need to do a bit more than that. If you want a whole scale, that is: Ab7b9 already has 5 notes in it, which is plenty to create solo phrases from.
Thirdly, you don't need to play D natural minor on Dm (assuming it is just a plain triad). You could play D dorian, D harmonic minor or D melodic minor. Even D phrygian would fit, but that's likely to sound bizarre in that context.

The notes in Ab7b9 are Ab-C-Eb-Gb-Bbb(A). Three of those notes - the ones shared with D7 - are in G major (C, Gb=F#, A), but two are not. You need a scale that includes all 5 notes. The best one (as I mentioned before) is Ab HW dim: Ab-A-B-C-D-Eb-F-Gb (8 notes). It's not hard to solo with, because you can just leave the root out of the chord shape, play all the other 4 notes, plus any note a half-step below (which will include the root anyway).
If the Ab7b9 was going to Dbm, then Db (C#) harmonic minor might be a good choice - but it isn't. (While it will fit the chord, it's also an awkward scale to use, and a little harder to connect with the following chord (Em9): but it does have one practical advantage: it's a half-step below D harmonic minor, which you might have been using on the previous 2 chords...)

[aniss1001]

Hmm.. based on a just looking at the chords I'd say the following:

GM7 -> Pure major or Lydian.
Ab7 -> Diminished HW or Altered.
Dm7 -> Dorian or Melodic minor.

A good idea is to find the notes that would be common to all the chords and use these notes as a base for improv.

Another thing one could do to simplify: Interpret the Dm7 as a D7#9 and this way you could play an Ab diminished HW over both Ab7 and Dm7 (Ab and D diminished are the same scale).

[JonR]

Originally Posted by aniss1001

Hmm.. based on a just looking at the chords I'd say the following:

GM7 -> Pure major or Lydian.
Ab7 -> Diminished HW or Altered.
Dm7 -> Dorian or Melodic minor.

A good idea is to find the notes that would be common to all the chords and use these notes as a base for improv.

Another thing one could do to simplify: Interpret the Dm7 as a D7#9 and this way you could play an Ab diminished HW over both Ab7 and Dm7 (Ab and D diminished are the same scale).

Good advice.
The question becomes: just how fixed are those chord choices? (He already changed Gmaj7 to Em9, and Dm7 to Dm - minimal changes, but they might begin to make a difference, or suggest some kind of flexibility.)
IOW, what is the purpose of the Dm(7)? Is it a resolution (temporary tonic) of the previous A7b9? Or a partial D7#9, ie dominant of G (similar function to Ab7b9)? Throwing an F# into the Dm7 makes a big difference!
This all effects scale choice, so one has to be really sure of the chords first.

If this was my composition (and they are nice changes), I would be trying to find a strong melody that led through the changes, so I knew which notes in the chords mattered, and which might be subject to change (reharmonization). As with the series of shapes I tabbed out, I would be looking at voice-leading options - not just a lead melody, but melodic moves in the other voices too. Scale choice(s) for improvisation is - literally - the last thing I'd think about! (And I may not think about it at all, there's plenty of other material there to improvise with)

[elinfoot]

Cheers every one, theres lots of ideas there.
The changes just came while I was messing about and didn't sound to harsh together. It's only afterwards that I tried to make sense out of them. I suppose it serves me right for coming up with something without fully understanding it first
ANyway, this is what it sounded like in context of the tune . It's the bit after the 'verse' .It's a bit hard to hear in the mix..
It's still a work in progress....

[elinfoot]

whoops, forgot the link

02 nuevo hairy glenn cuisine by Eric Linfoot on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

[Stefan P]

Originally Posted by elinfoot

whoops, forgot the link

02 nuevo hairy glenn cuisine by Eric Linfoot on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

Hmmmmmm ... that song name sounds startlingly familiar! I suggest you do what I do. Play random notes over the tops of the chords and hope that you get it right when Neil presses the "record" button.

[Nuff Said]

Listen, listen, listen to the song, then sing, sing, sing the song, then sing improvised solos, then play an improvised solo on your guitar.

You have to hear the music in your head to be able to play it well.

Nuff

[elinfoot]

Hi Steff ! You're on here too , it's a cool site for finding things out in a jazz stylee. There's always something interesting going on. I don't think random notes would sound quite as awesome . I think I'm either going to have to change that bit to something more manageable or spend some time learning how to use the diminished scale properly....