Min(Maj) 2-5-1 Progressions

[AlsoRan]

I am a newbie and have been practicing various chord progressions from my instructional book. Well, I decided to start working on Melodic Minor and Harmonic Minor 2-5-1 up and down the neck.

I have got to tell you, the Min (Major) chord is disturbing to me. It reminds me of a scene in a slasher movie!

Can some of you experienced players share some thoughts on the Min(Major) chord and possible suggest some Jazz songs that utilize it? I am a bit put off by it right now.

Call me sensitive, but I don't listen to Jazz music to be affected this way, at least I don't think I have noticed this chord or chord progression to be prominent in any of the songs I really like. If it is in there, then it is blended in very well.

[nion]

the last chord on Invitation is a EbminMaj7, check it out.

[AlsoRan]

Thanks nion.

I just listened to Joe Henderson's version (at least a sample of it). I guess I have been hearing it all along in the bittersweet jazz songs that I have come across (but really don't play a lot, I skip to the next more upbeat song being more of a hard bop type of guy).

By the way, I am holding you responsible for all the money I will be spending on Joe Henderson CDs. I loved his playing in the samples I heard! Just loved it!

[bako]

Harlem Nocturne
Nica's Dream

[AlsoRan]

I ran across this while researching the chord on Wikipedia:

"The minor major seventh chord is most often used in jazz, typically functioning as a minor tonic. Jazz musicians usually improvise with the melodic minor scale over this chord; the harmonic minor scale is also used. Additionally, Bernard Herrmann's use of this chord - most notoriously in his score for Psycho - has earned it the nickname, "The Hitchcock Chord".[

Maybe this is why I identify it with a mad slasher scene.

[brwnhornet59]

Tensions from MM and HM get a bit twisted when extending them to the 7th or beyond. But these tensions have been used in some very nice ways.

If you do not like the minor major7 chord, you can substitute the natural 6th for the 7th in MM and the b6 for the 7th in Hm.

But you are going to find a lot of these repeated tensions over and over.

Beside the minor major 7, (Dorian natural 7), MM extended out will give you Lydian aug, Lydian dom, Myxo b6, and locrian b4, (alt). The other two modes, Dorian b2 and Locrain natural 2, do not sound eerie IMO. All of these have a very striking sound. MM has two tritones instead of one, like the major scale produces. So it takes some getting used to. But MM is by no means sinister, if used correctly it is extremely pleasing.

[Helgo]

Hi!

Solar is another classic example for this chord. In the first two bars.

Funny enough, I never identified it with mad slashers but with secret agents (It is featured prominently as well in the James Bond theme as in the Pink Panther theme....)

Cheers,
H.

[AlsoRan]

Thanks folks. I will be looking into both the songs and the various modes that were pointed out. This is where my books come in handy. I will play these modes and hear how they sound. Thanks again.

[youns]

There is a beautiful tune by jim hall : "all across the city". It uses the min/maj chord a lot.

[Badge]

Listen to my funny valentine. Great chord min/maj

[brwnhornet59]

I play a version of Summertime using a pedal that includes minor major7, also the opening chords of "Stairway To Heaven" use it as well. You will find it being used in many tunes. Once your ear acclimates you will have no problems.

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by brwnhornet59

... also the opening chords of "Stairway To Heaven" use it as well.

Ya hadda go there, dinja?

[JakeAcci]

I had to hear this chord a little bit before it didn't sound strange. I think the voicing and voice leading is everything. I'm not a big fan of the root position drop 2 voicing for min maj7.

Also, AlsoRan, you might find a chord like G9#11 to be more palatable. Voicings from low string to high string in TAB:

3x322x

x 10 9 10 10 9 (thumb on low string)

Then change the G bass note for a D...

[AlsoRan]

[quote=JakeAcci
AlsoRan, you might find a chord like G9#11 to be more palatable. Voicings from low string to high string in TAB:

3x322x

x 10 9 10 10 9 (thumb on low string)

Then change the G bass note for a D...[/quote]

JA, The G9#11 did not sound quite as final as some of the min(Major) voicings I played but I did not think I could use it as a substitute for the min(Maj) since your suggested chord comes from a Dominant family while the min(Maj) chord comes from....Heck! What is its tonality considered to be!?! Major, minor, dominant? I am going to have to refer to one of my reference books now. I have to admit, I do love a mystery. I will start with John Pac's book and see if it addresses this.

[jmstritt]

You can accentuate the min/maj7 sound as much or as little as you like. For instance in Solar, if you listen to most recordings of it, the rhythm section will stick with a plain ole Cmin7, and just let the B in the melody imply the min/maj7 sound. You can also use the min/maj sound in the My Funny Valentine context where you are walking down from a min triad to min/maj7, to min7, to min6 chord. (Yes, same as Stairway to Heaven).

FWIW, I do this, and I know a bunch of other folks that do this to... On the bridge to Confirmation where you have a bar of Cmin7 then a ii V I to Bb you can go Cmin Cmin/maj7 Cmin7 F7 Bbmaj7. The A in the F7 will keep the chromatic thing moving even though you are moving away from C in the bass.

I try not to think of min/maj 7 as its own sound though, I try to think of it as a Dom7 to a minor one chord. (Ex: E, G#, B, resolving A, C, E, G). It is really just a leading tone back to the tonic. I hope that helps.

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

JA, The G9#11 did not sound quite as final as some of the min(Major) voicings I played but I did not think I could use it as a substitute for the min(Maj) since your suggested chord comes from a Dominant family while the min(Maj) chord comes from....Heck! What is its tonality considered to be!?! Major, minor, dominant? I am going to have to refer to one of my reference books now. I have to admit, I do love a mystery. I will start with John Pac's book and see if it addresses this.

Sorry for being obtuse.

Does the G9#11 sound prettier or more tolerable than a minmaj7 to you?

What do you think about the sound of the G9#11 with a D in the bass instead of a G?

If you, like me, hear that as a little more sonorous, it can be useful to note that the voicings I gave would be Dminmaj7 if D is the bass note rather than G.

And about families, the minmaj7 is definitely in the minor family. It's function is often as a i or iv-.

[AlsoRan]

JA,
As usual, your posts get me thinking. And no, you were not obtuse in your first post, as usual, you were very clear and your second post was even more concrete and helpful.

JM, the only thing that is confusing me now is that my instructional books treat min(Maj7) as the "one" chord for the Melodic and Harmonic Minor 2-5-1 and 1-6-2-5 progressions. They do not treat is as a resolving Dom7 so can you elaborate a little more on your treatment of it?

One thing is for sure, I am going to have to try and listen for it more consciously and if I still don't like it, use one of Jake's substitutions.

Thanks for indulging me, gents.

[JakeAcci]

The minmaj7 can be tonic or is often part of a sequence like

ii, iiminmaj7, iim7, V7

that appears in pop songs often, as noted, and also can happen pretty much anywhere, not just the ii. That's definitely the more consonant use.

I think the voicings and voice leading are everything. Here is TAB for what I think is pretty for a ii V i leading to minmaj7:
x
10
9
10
9
x

(play the bass note then the chord)
xxx
xx8
xx8
xx10
xx12
7xxx

x
7
8
9
10
0

or

7
9
9
10
9
x

10
8
8
7
x
7

11
8
11
9 (or 11)
x
0

ii V to Bminmaj7:

7
7
9
9
10
x

10
10
9
8
9
x

9
7
7
8
x
7

another one, sorry for the stretches and thumbs, just trying to be pretty:

x
7
9
9
10
9

x
10
9
8
9
8

x
11
7
11
11
7

If these are too crazy, play the bass note first then the rest of the chord.

[brwnhornet59]

D-m7/G7/Cm7

[JonR]

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

JA,
As usual, your posts get me thinking. And no, you were not obtuse in your first post, as usual, you were very clear and your second post was even more concrete and helpful.

JM, the only thing that is confusing me now is that my instructional books treat min(Maj7) as the "one" chord for the Melodic and Harmonic Minor 2-5-1 and 1-6-2-5 progressions. They do not treat is as a resolving Dom7 so can you elaborate a little more on your treatment of it?

One thing is for sure, I am going to have to try and listen for it more consciously and if I still don't like it, use one of Jake's substitutions.

Thanks for indulging me, gents.

The m(maj7) is a tonic chord if held for any length of time.
But it is commonly used as a passing chord, as Jake points out, in which case it's common in a descent from any minor chord (aside from tonic, you might find it on iv in minor, or ii in major, mainly).
If you want a fancy theoretical term for a sequence like Am - Am(maj7) - Am7 - Am6, it's CESH - "contrapuntal elaboration of static harmony" (Ie, it's just making a long Am chord more interesting.)
The Am(maj7) there doesn't really have a function as such.
Eg, if the sequence was in the key of E minor (which it could be) then the G# in Am(maj7) is obviously out of key. (The normal iv chord in E minor is Am7.)
So it's just a chromatic passing chord.

But even as a tonic, it's not the kind of chord you want to strum very much (I don't anyway), not without alternating the maj7 with a 6th or something. You don't hear it as a groove chord. It's one of those fancy ending chords. When you see "m(maj7" in chord charts, it doesn't mean you actually have to play the maj7; it's just telling you that there's a maj7 in the scale (not a b7).

As Helgo says, the James Bond theme has a famous one on the end, where it sounds like the archetypal secret agent chord! Another site has a current thread about it, and there's debate about which of the following shapes is correct:

Easy:
---
-7-
-8-
-9-
-10
-0-

Tough:
-2-
-4-
-6-
-5-
-2-
-0-

The first one is Em(maj7), the second one adds a C#, so is Em(maj13). IMO the 2nd sounds more accurate, but both are cool. (But still, not chords you'd want to strum in a rhythm. They're just a big one-off "ta-daaa!")

Look out...

[JonR]

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

JJM, the only thing that is confusing me now is that my instructional books treat min(Maj7) as the "one" chord for the Melodic and Harmonic Minor 2-5-1 and 1-6-2-5 progressions. They do not treat is as a resolving Dom7 so can you elaborate a little more on your treatment of it?

IMO, when Jake mentioned G9#11, that wouldn't normally be used as a dominant (V) chord; nor, btw, as a IV chord in a minor key. It's from 4th mode of D melodic minor, but the iv chord in D minor is Gm7 (from D natural minor)

It's a lydian dominant, and would be used to resolve to either F#m (most often) or A major. IOW, nothing to do with the key of D minor!
Of course, that does also mean that Dm(maj7) - as a rootless G9#11 - could be used as a lydian dominant sound. And in the key of A major, it would be quite common for a minor iv chord (Dm) to resolve to A. The Dm would likely have a 6th - maybe less likely a maj7, but it would still be a melodic minor chord: because D melodic minor is the closest scale so A major that contains the Dm chord tones.
IOW, in A major, G9#11 is a kind of sub for Dm(maj7), the minor iv.
In key of F# minor, G9#11 is a tritone sub for the true dominant: C#7alt. (The implied chord-scale is D melodic minor on either chord.)

[brwnhornet59]

Originally Posted by JonR

IMO, when Jake mentioned G9#11, that wouldn't normally be used as a dominant (V) chord; nor, btw, as a IV chord in a minor key. It's from 4th mode of D melodic minor, but the iv chord in D minor is Gm7 (from D natural minor)

It's a lydian dominant, and would be used to resolve to either F#m (most often) or A major. IOW, nothing to do with the key of D minor!
Of course, that does also mean that Dm(maj7) - as a rootless G9#11 - could be used as a lydian dominant sound. And in the key of A major, it would be quite common for a minor iv chord (Dm) to resolve to A. The Dm would likely have a 6th - maybe less likely a maj7, but it would still be a melodic minor chord: because D melodic minor is the closest scale so A major that contains the Dm chord tones.
IOW, in A major, G9#11 is a kind of sub for Dm(maj7), the minor iv.
In key of F# minor, G9#11 is a tritone sub for the true dominant: C#7alt. (The implied chord-scale is D melodic minor on either chord.)

Yes Sir!! That's the way to do it!

[AlsoRan]

Thanks again, gents! I am finally seeing how that min(Maj7) chord is customarily used. The voice leading spelled out what was happening with the various important notes such as the 7th.

So now, by all indications, it appears that Melodic Minor and Harmonic Minor 2-5-1 progressions ending on the tonic min(Major 7) are just plain not often utilized as often as much in the real world, although it is available.

'til next time...

[AlsoRan]

BTW, I printed this thread out for future reference!

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

So now, by all indications, it appears that Melodic Minor and Harmonic Minor 2-5-1 progressions ending on the tonic min(Major 7) are just plain not often utilized as often as much in the real world, although it is available.

'til next time...

I don't know man the way I think of it, if you have a minor ii V then that is almost always going to be m7b5 to a dominant with at least one altered tension, to a minor chord and that minor chord is either a triad, a m7, a m6, or a minmaj7. I don't pay too much attention to when/whether it's m6 or minmaj7 because they both seem to come up often. But maybe I'm just not paying close enough attention!

But the difference between the m6/minmaj7 pair and the m7 chord is quite palpable. Check out those tunes mentioned

[JonR]

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

Thanks again, gents! I am finally seeing how that min(Maj7) chord is customarily used. The voice leading spelled out what was happening with the various important notes such as the 7th.

So now, by all indications, it appears that Melodic Minor and Harmonic Minor 2-5-1 progressions ending on the tonic min(Major 7) are just plain not often utilized as often as much in the real world, although it is available.

'til next time...

Yes, "available" is the word. There's no hard and fast rules here. Just common practices and personal preferences.
It's always dangerous to try to discern rules from listening to a few recordings. Theorists listen to 100s, of course, but there's always grey areas, and always exceptions. The safest thing (if your plan is to learn to play a specific genre) is just to listen to as much of that style as you can, and pick up on anything that catches your ear - and work out what it is. Life is too short to learn everything! So follow your ear and your instinct.

Knowledge of a few theoretical ground rules is useful of course, so you can recognise things when you hear them. But don't be surprised when you hear music that breaks them!

[AlsoRan]

Wow!

You guys are on top of your game. I went to my Jazz instructional books and all but one advocate replacing the Min(Major7) chord with a Min 7 chord. A couple gave reasons for it, which were basically that it sounds too unstable to most people's ears.

You saved me a lot of practice time I would have wasted on a progression that is not often utilized.

I have to close by saying I am starting to come around to the sound of the chord, but only as some of your mentioned, as a passing chord to replace another minor type chord.

And I learned a new term, "Contrapuntal Elaboration of Static Harmony." Say that ten times quickly.
Jazz Arranging Tutorial: Contrapuntal Elaboration of Static Harmony
TermWiki

[JakeAcci]

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

You guys are on top of your game. I went to my Jazz instructional books and all but one advocate replacing the Min(Major7) chord with a Min 7 chord. A couple gave reasons for it, which were basically that it sounds too unstable to most people's ears.

You saved me a lot of practice time I would have wasted on a progression that is not often utilized.

Well...for me I think minmaj7 is a great sound, it is just specific. Tonic m7 can be a bit too 'bluesy' for me, sorry to be simplistic again.

When I have a tonic minor chord I usually think of it as m6 or minmaj7 unless if there is a b7 in the melody, or if it is kind of a groovy/bluesy tune like a Wes tune. This is a decision based on my observations through transcription.

But also it depends on what the soloist is doing, and of course I'll try to comp harmony that follows that...

To be honest I think you might have misunderstood something in those texts if you actually read an advocation of replacing any minmaj7 with m7. If I see minmaj7 on a lead sheet, I am definitely NOT playing a m7! It probably is on the sheet because of a M7 in the melody, so look out! Now, replacing a minmaj7 with a m6 is a different issue.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

Wow!

You guys are on top of your game. I went to my Jazz instructional books and all but one advocate replacing the Min(Major7) chord with a Min 7 chord. A couple gave reasons for it, which were basically that it sounds too unstable to most people's ears.

I agree with Jake, you need to be careful with that. A min7 chord is not always a suitable replacement for a m(maj7).
Better choices would usually be m6, m69, or m(add9). Or just the plain triad! All of those are consistent with the melodic minor implication of m(maj7).
The reason is that a m(maj7) is usually functioning as a tonic. Min7 chords, OTOH, are usually functioning as non-tonic chords: iv in a minor key, or ii, vi or iii in major.
Naturally there are exceptions. Min7s will work well as tonics in some jazz tunes, often better than m(maj7).

Remember it's not a matter of whether you like the sound of the chord or not, in isolation. It's whether it's right for the piece you find it in, for the context.
You may still not like the chord even if it suits the context; that's OK, but consider the other melodic minor alternatives before going for min7.

[AlsoRan]

I can see what you mean about a tonic min7 chord being bluesy, since bluesmen use a lot of Dom7 chords. While the min 6 and min(maj7) are definitely more "jazzy."

I will take heed of your cautions and to make this more concrete, I am going to have to write out several progressions and track the voice leading as well as play it. That will be my next lesson to myself - "Understanding the minor chord progression that uses min6 or minMaj7 as a Tonic as opposed to the min7."