Charlie Parker classic dominant line

[youns]

Hi,

I transcribed Au privave, and there is a line I like I would like to know where it comes from. It is a line on the V7 (C7). I guess it is from Bb jazz minor, as i show at the end of the video. That would give : R, b9, #9, 4, 5, 6, 7 of C7. There is not the major third of C7 in this scale so I could be totally wrong !

What do you think ?

YouTube Video

[JonR]

There is an alternative scale which would include the E, but let's break it down first.

The first 3 notes (A Bb C) are a lead in over the previous Gm chord (may not be relevant to scale ID on the C7).

The line on the C7 itself is Db Eb Db C B Bb A C Bb (resolving to A on the following F7 chord).
There's a chromatic run of 3 half-steps in the middle there, and B is clearly a passing note.
Aside from the B - yes you could "explain" it as Bb melodic minor (which would include the lead-in too). As you say, that doesn't include the major 3rd of the C, so breaks a basic chord-scale rule (which doesn't rule it out, but makes it an unlikely first choice).

If you want a scale interpretation (to include chord tones as well as this lick) my money's on HW dim: C Db Eb E F# Gb A Bb. (With B as a passing note of course.)

But I would also look at this as chord tones plus embellishment. Only the first 3 notes (Db-Eb-Db, covering one beat) are non-diatonic, and the rest (except for B) are chord tones: C, Bb, G.

Of course, it's hard to say how Charlier Parker was thinking. But generally his soloing was based on chord tones, not scales (although his arpeggios often included extensions or alterations such as b9s).
As I see it, the whole idea of chromatic passing notes in bebop is based on starting from chord tones, not from a scale (the idea being to have chord tones on each beat). The notes in between the beats may be diatonic or chromatic, it's less important. (Diatonic might be first choice, but chromatic notes also make good bluesy voice-leading.)

I would characterise this phrase as opening with an embellishment of the root: the Db is a chromatic approach (neighbour tone), and he adds a "turn" up to Eb and back before actually hitting the C. This is how it sounds to me; and is the kind of thing he often did. After that, a passing note to the 7th (Bb), and from there it's filling space to get to the Bb-A voice-leading transition from C7 to F. Ie, he comes back up from G to C so as to get a run-down to Bb again on the last 8th, and on to A that way.

On the F chord, another hint: he plays a 3-note arpeggio - A-F-C - with an embellishment of the C: preceding it with an "enclosure" of Db and B. IMO, this is the same kind of idea as preceding the earlier C with Db-Eb-Db. (You could explain the F lick in scale terms - as wholetone, or maybe F altered - but it's much easier and simpler to see it in chord tone terms.)

IOW, although you can safely think "HW dim" for the C7 lick, it's how you apply it to the chord tones (fit it to the arpeggio) that's crucial. Just noodling on C HW dim is not enough. The scale may be part of the answer, but it's not essential to understanding this phrase. The chord-tones-and-embellishments idea, however, IS essential. That's how the notes are applied (whether or not you label the notes as a scale of some kind).

[youns]

A big thank you ! It is an epiphany : I finally understood what enclosure and chord tones falling on the downbeat means !

In this case and thanks to your explanation it makes indeed more sense to think of it as embellishments. I doubt charlie parker ever heard of melodic minor or HW dim scale, has he ?

I missed the enclosure of the 5th of F7 with Db and B in my transcription. There is a lot of shed in perspective for me, and it will undoubtly begin with a more careful listening of this concept of embellishment.

[M-ster]

I submit that it is not uncommon to hear guys play lines off of iv-minor for a number of situations (I'll stay in F):

1) Over iv minor: Bb-
2) Over bVII7: Eb7
3) Over V7: C7

Over the V7, it gives you b9, #9, and nat. 13 and is an alternate choice to using diminished to get these tensions.

The coolest part of that lick (to me, anyways) is the B natural passing tone, which, granted, is typical to the dom 7 "be-bop" scale - so, why not? (It's mixing the iv-minor and "be-bop" passing tone that I'm responding to.)

[JonR]

Originally Posted by youns

A big thank you ! It is an epiphany : I finally understood what enclosure and chord tones falling on the downbeat means !

In this case and thanks to your explanation it makes indeed more sense to think of it as embellishments. I doubt charlie parker ever heard of melodic minor or HW dim scale, has he ?

Well, he was supposedly the source of that famous quote: "Learn all your scales. Then forget 'em all and just play." IOW, he regarded scale knowledge as fundamental. (Even if the quote is not his, that's probably true.)

But I don't know what he might have meant by "all" scales. He certainly wouldn't have meant bebop scales, a concept which post-dated his work. He would definitely have known his melodic and harmonic minor scales, but how far (if at all) he explored the concept of modes of those scales I have no idea. I mean modes outside of the key. I doubt he would have thought of alterations to a dominant chord forming a mode of melodic minor that had nothing to do with the key he was in. I also don't know if the diminished scales were part of jazz culture in his day (I've a feeling I ought to know... )

My guess is that by "all your scales", he meant major and minor scales in all 12 keys (including harmonic and melodic minor). But not bebop scales, maybe not diminished, and almost certainly not the superimposed modes of melodic minor we know as altered and lydian dominant. (He would not even have known the word "lydian", because modes were definitely not part of jazz in those days.)

The other thing he was famous for was his exploration of the "sweet notes" - upper extensions to chords. Naturally, the more extensions you add on top of a chord, the more it approaches a complete scale. So there can be a grey area when analysing his stuff as to whether he is still thinking primarily of chord tones, or scales. Again, I'm guessing, but I'd take his comment about "forget 'em" at his word. He means the knowledge should become subconscious, so one doesn't think about scales when one plays. But one still thinks! So the conscious focus has to be chord tones, at least partially. Naturally there are higher levels of creative thought such as melodic shape, rhythmic phrasing, dynamics and articulation. But at the bottom of the conscious process is chord tones. (Scales are there beneath consciousness.)

BTW, I'm not holding up bebop as the golden era of jazz (as most jazz pedagogy seems to)! Jazz has moved on since then, and keeps moving. In comparison with modern jazz, Parker's stuff can seem crude and primitive - just one step (though a big step) above Dixieland. If he had lived to see the explosion of the 60s (modal, free, fusion), he'd have left bebop well behind- just as Miles did.
IOW, just because Charlie Parker worked from chord tones and not scales doesn't mean that's an ideal we should all follow. (It may be a good ideal, but not for that reason alone.) Modal jazz WAS based on scales (with chords developed out of the scales rather than vice versa), and produced some great classic jazz in its own right.

[whatswisdom]

Originally Posted by JonR

Well, he was supposedly the source of that famous quote: "Learn all your scales. Then forget 'em all and just play."

I seem to recall it as being, "Learn the changes so that you can forget about them." Something along those lines....

[danjw]

"You've got to learn your instrument. Then, you practice, practice, practice. And then, when you finally get up there on the bandstand, forget all that and just wail."

[danjw]

With regards the line. It definatly pays to see it in terms of chord tones not scales.
Though the combo of # and b 9's with a nat 13 implys the diminished scale.
And the Bnat is just that classic bebop passing note (Why D Baker felt the need to write a whole bunch of books about it beats me!)

[youns]

Originally Posted by M-ster

I submit that it is not uncommon to hear guys play lines off of iv-minor for a number of situations (I'll stay in F):

1) Over iv minor: Bb-
2) Over bVII7: Eb7
3) Over V7: C7

In his first chorus of au privave, I noticed Parker plays a iv arpeggio line over the IV7 to come back to I7. Do you have examples that come to your mind in order to hear that in context ?

[M-ster]

Originally Posted by youns

In his first chorus of au privave, I noticed Parker plays a iv arpeggio line over the IV7 to come back to I7. Do you have examples that come to your mind in order to hear that in context ?

I'd like to see or hear this phrase, in order to make a more informed comment.

[youns]

Originally Posted by M-ster

I'd like to see or hear this phrase, in order to make a more informed comment.

Here is the line, at around 0:35 :

YouTube Video

This is the only example I know, but I don't know a lot, I am discovering
So, if ever you remember in which tune you heard lines based on the iv minor, like you said, on the bVII or the V7, could you tell me ?

[M-ster]

I attached a .jpg of the phrase. I would guess that Charlie's working generally from the chords I indicate above the notes, although, granted, that's not exactly what the pianist is comping. (He's playing a Bb7 voicing in bar 29 and essentially laying out the next bar.)

We can debate what the lead-ins to bars 29 and 30 really are ... Also, interestingly, I originally thought Parker was just working off the Bbmaj7 arp in bar 33, but at this point I'm pretty certain he's playing a Db in beat 2 (as indicated). So, he's playing more G-7b5 to G-7, which, when you think about it is playing with the iv minor vs. IV major again (Bb-6 to Bbmaj7 this time - the opposite of bars 29 to 30). Pretty subtle and pretty cool. That's why he's Parker.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by M-ster

So, he's playing more G-7b5 to G-7

Nice observation, I didn't think of that: changing a. V for a ii-V - or a iv-V as you say. (Taking the C7 as read.)
I seem to remember reading somewhere it was the beboppers who first took a minor iv6 chord and inverted it into a ii7b5.
Certainly it seems like minor iv6 chords crop up a lot in pre-1940s jazz, but after that point you see half-dim ii chords much more often. Of course they're essentially the same thing, but it's an interestingly different way of thinking.